VA 1 Pakros d'Ulmental--ED: noch zugelassen - Page 4

Sorry Louise but we arn't talking apples & oranges, it doesn't matter if its hips or elbows, what i want to know is how can the german grading be so different?.

So which countries grading system is at fault?

There a dogs in the UK with class 1 hips/elbows (Under 20) and yet only get a NZ rating in Germany. Then there was a dog from Germany that came to the uk that had 'a' fast normal hips, yet when scored under the BVA scheme it came back as 50+ which is outside any class and no one would even consider breeding from it, so what if the owners hadn't of had the dog scored in the UK and just went with the German grading?.

Watcher, we've discussed this very thing in another post, the inconsistency in evaluating hips xrays and assigning ratings. Looks like the next big debate will be elbows. No solution here, just the same question most are asking - who do you trust?

Who does the SV use as their readers for hips and elbows?

We do not have a Class system in the Uk with regard to hips or elbows.

Elbows are either 0, 1, 2 or 3 (unlike hips the two scores are not added together) So the elbows we are looking for are 0:0

Hips, the BMS for GSD in the UK is 19.  The KC recommends that breeding should only be from stock WELL BELOW  the BMS.

As there is hardly a shortage of the breed in the UK I see no reason to breed from dogs with hips in double figures unless there are overwhelming reasons to do so ie the dog/bitch possesses a lot of other outstanding qualities.

I just came back from the Siegerschau. Like most, I was very impressed with Pakros' progeny group. BTW, his son Vegas was not allowed to participate in it, because he fell under the new 2 year regulation the SV implemented. This rule excludes dogs which were sired before the male turned two years old.

A Sieger is selected due to his ability to produce. Pakros more than proved that fact, also in regard to HD and ED.  It is a joke that people complain about his E3 status. The ED criteria is new and just got implemented by the SV. As stated on German boards, at the beginning of this, dogs were judged much harder. The SV approved veterinarians did not have any experience or comparison to give out educated opinions. Years ago, nobody complained that Sieger Jeck Noricum had a3. Nowadays, that would not be possible anymore. As a matter of fact, Reinhardt Meyer stated that the V-1 dog was not able to obtain VA-status due to his high ZW. Meanwhile, remember that  "noch zugelassen" means "still permissable". It is up to the individual breeder to decide which dog to utilize in his or her breeding program and which not. I personally would not hesitate one second to breed to Pakros if I had a suitable female.  At this point, I am happy to know what ED status a dog has. Up until recently, we did not know at all.

A big congratulations to Pakros and his owners on a deserved VA-1 placement.

Chris

Hi Chris, do you think the SV will enstate a ZW program for elbows in the future? Tt's proabably just as important to know what a dog like Pakros is producing as it is to know his own status. With all the descrepencies in hip ratings I have to wonder if this dog might not get certified by the OFA as having normal elbows. I assume most in Germany are not interested in having OFA evaluate either end of their dogs?

We do not have a Class system in the Uk with regard to hips or elbows.

Langhaar i think you need to do your research again as we do have a class system in the UK for hips/elbows.

Perhaps you could point me to that as the KC/BVA scheme does not put hips or elbows into classes merely numbers....................

I guess you don't subscribe to the Breed Council like 90% of show people or UK GSD breeders?

http://www.gsdbreedcouncil.co.uk/page.php

Hi Blitzen,

I don't know if the SV will install a Zuchtwertsystem for elbows, for the simple reason being that the data is not available. Checking for ED is brand new, so there is no information on ancestors. Remember that the calculation of ZW is based on that, among other statistics. But the SV has statistics on offspring available. In Pakros' case, it was shown under a different thread. I believe you asked if all x-rays are sent in. I personally do not think so. Just like the OFA does not receive all xrays. It is just not possible to do so. As to OFA, that is our system here in the U.S. No other country utilizes it. I want to wager that a lot of Germans (or Europeans, as Pakros is from Italy) have never heard of OFA. Why would they want to send xrays of their dogs to the U.S. for OFA to evaluate? Unless they have a specific reason to do so, like a pending sale of a high-profile dog to the U.S., maybe! I would not send xrays of my dogs to Italy or any other country without a specific reason. Also, I would not generalize that dogs would not get certified by OFA because of their rating elsewhere. Especially elbows were rated very strictly at the beginning (as long as experience and comparison were absent).

I reiterate what I said before. The elbow certification just started. We have to wait and see. No dog with a3 hips would be Sieger nowadays, but Jeck was years ago. And what would we have done without Jeck? There would be no Ursus-line. As to elbows, what do we know about the elbows of the great dogs of the past (Uran, Quando, Odin, Fero etc.)? Nothing!!!! For all we know, they could have had ED (or not)! And what about Nero Noebachtal? Personally, I am glad that he was available for a short time. Just look at what he left us! And imagine what could have been.Therefore, it is not a good idea to limit our gene pool. Breeding is thinking in generations and not a short term fix for the puppy buyer market. If I had a suitable female for Pakros, I would not hesitate.

Chris