Why can North American GSD breeders never seem to breed world class dogs?? - Page 38

I don't really know what is the right way, but I do know that where I place my priorities has allowed me to produce some nice dogs over the years....and I think that many of these posts have some ingredients, but there is no absolute. I know breeders here in US that are definitely producing top of the line GS. They all have one thing in common, exceptional knowledge about their dogs, lines, the breed, and working abilities of the breed.......they all value health testing, but after that they vary in their approach, yet I would buy from them because they are producing very very nice dogs.

Slam and Workingdogz have nicely summed it up for me. Not much else left to say about the topic.

The best breeders in the US, let's just forget about the lines for once, are not goiing to give stud service or become involved otherwise with another breeder who flies by the seat of his pant - no xrays, no health checks, no titles. Why would they want to be associated with a wannabe who won't even make the most basic effort to prove his stock prior to breeding.

The culture of breeding names and titles and famous dogs will not get any breeding program going, and Jim, when you go to a vendor to select and test dogs for Policework, do you put more weight on the test of the individual dog, or at the paperwork/parents of the dogs

Duke, 
I rarely if ever see pedigrees on the dogs we test.  I look at the animal and how it responds to the tests and evaluation we put the dog through.  I don't care about color or breed.  I simply want a dog that can do the job well and has the drives to perform everyday.  Our newest handler is a GSD lover, he owns two GSD's, volunteers for the GSD rescue and fosters dogs.  I told him rather bluntly before we went to select a dog for him that he may not get a GSD.  He will get the best working dog that I can find.  The look on is face was as if I just told a child there was no Santa Claus.  Well, the best dog we tested was an ugly Dutch Shepherd, scrawny and an off color.  That is the dog he got, a few months later I asked "Do you still want a GSD for your working dog?"  With a big smile he replied "Absolutely not." When it comes to our Police Dogs, no titles do not matter, health and x rays do along with working ability.  But, we are not breeding these dog!!!!  We are simply working these dogs and many of our best GSD Police K-9's I would not consider breed worthy.
 
I feel the need to make a point about breeders working and titling their dogs, titling does not guarantee a dog is breed worthy.  But a dog that is incapable of earning a title of any kind should never be bred, these are GSD's not poodles that we are discussing.  Titling is ONE step in the selection process, just like X-rays of hips and elbows.  A titled dog is not necessarily a breed worthy dog as most titled dogs should not be bred.  But a breeder can not really understand working ability if they dabbled in a dog sport for a couple of years.  To know if your dog is breed worthy it must leave your back yard and be evaluated by an impartial expert.  This goes for both conformation and working ability.  As workingdogz put it, the best rock jumpers, picnic table hoppers, or super secret squirrel dogs are not breed worthy IMO, unless they are proven and health tested.  And even then why breed these marginal dogs?????  Because they are touted on the internet as having a well known pedigree? 

My advice to perspective puppy buyers is to avoid breeders that brag about the well known dogs 2,3, or 4 generations back but can't talk about their accomplishments, their stud's accomplishments or the bitches accomplishments.  People need to ask questions and not get snowed by someone peddling a litter of pups.  If nothing else bring some one knowledgeable with you to evaluate the dogs and then make an educated decision.
 

My advice to perspective puppy buyers is to avoid breeders that brag about the well known dogs 2,3, or 4 generations back but can't talk about their accomplishments, their stud's accomplishments or the bitches accomplishments.  People need to ask questions and not get snowed by someone peddling a litter of pups.  If nothing else bring some one knowledgeable with you to evaluate the dogs and then make an educated decision.

Amen!!!!
 

  

can agree there with you slamdunc , but there are no definites unfurtunate, as we also see many crappy dogs from titled parents and many breeders buy titled stock and sell the pups because parents are titled and grandson of the great so and so

the fact that you look at the dogs and not the papers for testing, is kind of my point in this discussion, you select the right dog for the job , titled parents or not, this is how a breeder should go about it in my opinion

 

Duke: " , but there are no definites unfurtunate, as we also see many crappy dogs from titled parents and many breeders buy titled stock and sell the pups because parents are titled and grandson of the great so and so"

That´s the MAIN REASON why breeders need to get involved in training, no matter if they choose IPO, Mondio, or something else. Without training by themselves they´ll NEVER know about their own dogs, out of titled parents or not.
All of us should know, that in almost every litter there are different puppies, in the best case there are some great ones and some are at least pet quality, even out of LE dogs/VA dogs, no matter what.... Without training and testing you will never know.

The origin thought of Schutzhund trials and breed surveys is to notice if the dog inherited working ability/ conformation or not, points are unimportant at this point.

ANY breeder training - titling - showing his own breeding stock will know about his dogs.
At that point it´s his own choice what to do, but at least HE KNOWS, and he has the possibility to decide where he wants to go.

Once again, we are talking about breeders right now - without selection no successful breeding program, but WITHOUT TRAINING NO SELECTION.

think you are kindof missing my point, in many(most) cases today, titled parents and famous names are selling argument instead of measure of quality and guarantee for matching combination

sure I agree that people should healthtest their dogs and work them or their offspring

I´m missing nothing - I´m totally aware of cheating, late night trials, and all this stuff.
I´m sitting at the spring....
and at that point it´s more than important for any breeder to train and proof his own breeding stock.

"We are SIMPLY WORKING these dogs and many of our BEST GSD police K9's I would not consider breed worthy". Then what, other than a dog trained to perform a routine to attain a title, is breed worthy? After all, the GSD is considered to be a WORKING BREED, (it's not called a TITLE BREED) ?
By the way, I'm looking for a good trainer; not one who has proven his expertise as a trainer through years of experience working dogs which have been certified and are working as LE K9s. I want a trainer who has a college degree in dog behavior and is a newly "certified dog trainer", ( he must have a certificate to prove he's been certified by...... 'somebody' ). Any recommendations, cause I want the best trainer I can find to crank out the best LE K9s possible ? (FWIW, this last paragraph is sarcasm, meant to illustrate the contradiction in the first sentence).
JMO

The German Shepherd was not created to be a police K9, it was created to become a versatile dog ABLE TO DO POLICEWORK, too.
I stated before, and I´ll do it gain:

There are IPO titled dogs not breedworthy
and
there are police K9 dogs not breedworthy.

but without knowledge ( knowledge in this case coming from experience, and experience coming from training ) the breeder will never know.