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by darylehret on 07 October 2010 - 11:10
While that might be the idea, the phrase "you have to run on a good many pups before you find one good enough to keep" only expounds upon what I mentioned earlier. The remainder become fodder for shelters. This is a highly inneficient approach.
People who are crossing the lines are looking for an instant success, like winning a lottery. Then after such, they fail to use those dogs to genetically set in the type that they've achieved, and breed only with those successes. Instead, they're probably bred back to the mess and eventually watered down to nothing. But in general, the kind of people who wager on lotteries often lack the sort of discipline required.
It would be true-er to the breed, to fashion their ideal of "structurally correct" from the careful selection of workingline dogs that have demonstrated their ability to reproduce true already on those working qualities. Then in an approach of refinement may mess around with more trivial matters, like what their subjective opinion dictates as "structurally improved".
People who are crossing the lines are looking for an instant success, like winning a lottery. Then after such, they fail to use those dogs to genetically set in the type that they've achieved, and breed only with those successes. Instead, they're probably bred back to the mess and eventually watered down to nothing. But in general, the kind of people who wager on lotteries often lack the sort of discipline required.
It would be true-er to the breed, to fashion their ideal of "structurally correct" from the careful selection of workingline dogs that have demonstrated their ability to reproduce true already on those working qualities. Then in an approach of refinement may mess around with more trivial matters, like what their subjective opinion dictates as "structurally improved".
by hutch on 07 October 2010 - 11:10
Just to clarify my comment about running on pups.....
I show dogs at top level in the UK and Ireland - am hoping to show on the continent eventually but work commitments make that difficult at the moment.
I can only keep a very limited number of dogs due to family and work commitments.
Therefore, I have to be very choosy about what I keep and it is not possible to make that choice at 8 weeks. Having said that any animal that it with me at 12 months rarely ever goes anywhere because they are usually part of the family by then.
I do my best to make sure my pups are not fodder for shelters - starting with the fact that I only breed one or two litters max per year and my pups are sold with a commitment that they come back to me if the new owners can't keep them.
I don't consider my approach to be "inefficient" - it is very considered.
I show dogs at top level in the UK and Ireland - am hoping to show on the continent eventually but work commitments make that difficult at the moment.
I can only keep a very limited number of dogs due to family and work commitments.
Therefore, I have to be very choosy about what I keep and it is not possible to make that choice at 8 weeks. Having said that any animal that it with me at 12 months rarely ever goes anywhere because they are usually part of the family by then.
I do my best to make sure my pups are not fodder for shelters - starting with the fact that I only breed one or two litters max per year and my pups are sold with a commitment that they come back to me if the new owners can't keep them.
I don't consider my approach to be "inefficient" - it is very considered.
by Abby Normal on 07 October 2010 - 12:10
Darylehret
Whether in working or show you do have to run on a good many pups before you obtain what you are setting out to achieve, especially in this situation, but it is nothing new.
Why you think these pups would become fodder for shelters any more than any others bred I can't see. The majority of all GSDs bred are in companion homes. A miniscule amount are used for sport on the one hand, or showing on the other, when compared to the numbers produced.
That's a very sweeping statement about people crossing showline/working line. A breeder with real knowledge and dedication is going to be working to achieve balance, not just from the one breeding, but for the future. Shirley is, in my opinion, such a breeder.
Each side of the great divide believes they are right of course, and neither want change, the argument has been done to death. We shall have to wait and see what comes of those taking a more midline path before we condemn those efforts.
In this particular instance there is no question of the quality of either the show or working dog selected.
Whether in working or show you do have to run on a good many pups before you obtain what you are setting out to achieve, especially in this situation, but it is nothing new.
Why you think these pups would become fodder for shelters any more than any others bred I can't see. The majority of all GSDs bred are in companion homes. A miniscule amount are used for sport on the one hand, or showing on the other, when compared to the numbers produced.
That's a very sweeping statement about people crossing showline/working line. A breeder with real knowledge and dedication is going to be working to achieve balance, not just from the one breeding, but for the future. Shirley is, in my opinion, such a breeder.
Each side of the great divide believes they are right of course, and neither want change, the argument has been done to death. We shall have to wait and see what comes of those taking a more midline path before we condemn those efforts.
In this particular instance there is no question of the quality of either the show or working dog selected.
by Ibrahim on 07 October 2010 - 12:10
Abby Normal,
Very well said.
Ibrahim
Very well said.
Ibrahim
by Ibrahim on 07 October 2010 - 13:10
I think the problem lies in the extremists on both sides, it needs people not sided as Aby Normal to locate, verify, evaluate and then find a cure for individual problems on both sides. Breeders of neuteral standing who appreciate both the show and working can and may bring back the GSD to what it was one day or even a better all round balanced one.
I think (and I may be wrong here) it is easier to add nerves, drives and athleticism to the show by entering work dogs into the pedigree intelligently as in my opinion the show has better type as of today, at the same time remove overangulation and roached backs. These are my impressions after this lengthy excellent thread.
Ibrahim
I think (and I may be wrong here) it is easier to add nerves, drives and athleticism to the show by entering work dogs into the pedigree intelligently as in my opinion the show has better type as of today, at the same time remove overangulation and roached backs. These are my impressions after this lengthy excellent thread.
Ibrahim
by Jeff Oehlsen on 07 October 2010 - 16:10
Quote: I thought crossing a work with show would produce more balanced dogs in regards to drives.
No, it would be really nice if that was true, and make breeding a hell of a lot easier. First off, too many tend to think that working lines are unbalanced when they come from the show camp. They are not unbalanced. Too many people are just unsuited for a GSD, and that is how we came up with all these weird looking shitters. It was women more than men that influenced the shitter trend.
With breeding people seem to think that they are going to get the middle, and that might happen with one pup. I would love to have the show line people show up and bring their dogs and let me show them how the lack of drives and high thresholds and stupid looking angulation works against them in real work. If we could do that with a thousand show line dogs, people would really start looking at the breed differently. They would see that what they are producing is not what they think they are producing. What they thought were balanced drives, are really just shit drives. The dogs will melt out.
It is hard enough to find solid working line GSD's and there you have people thinking they are doing something brilliant by outcrossing to stupid showline dogs.
When I think of how little they really know about drives, I wonder what they are thinking breeding in the first place, and then to be proud of it. Yuch.
No, it would be really nice if that was true, and make breeding a hell of a lot easier. First off, too many tend to think that working lines are unbalanced when they come from the show camp. They are not unbalanced. Too many people are just unsuited for a GSD, and that is how we came up with all these weird looking shitters. It was women more than men that influenced the shitter trend.
With breeding people seem to think that they are going to get the middle, and that might happen with one pup. I would love to have the show line people show up and bring their dogs and let me show them how the lack of drives and high thresholds and stupid looking angulation works against them in real work. If we could do that with a thousand show line dogs, people would really start looking at the breed differently. They would see that what they are producing is not what they think they are producing. What they thought were balanced drives, are really just shit drives. The dogs will melt out.
It is hard enough to find solid working line GSD's and there you have people thinking they are doing something brilliant by outcrossing to stupid showline dogs.
When I think of how little they really know about drives, I wonder what they are thinking breeding in the first place, and then to be proud of it. Yuch.
by hutch on 07 October 2010 - 20:10
I am guessing I shouldn't bite but Jeff Oelsen your posts are thoroughly unpleasant and show you to be a blinkered, rude misogynist who is incapable of considering the opinions of others.
Respond if you wish but I will be ignoring any further posts you make.
Respond if you wish but I will be ignoring any further posts you make.
by hutch on 07 October 2010 - 21:10
by Felloffher on 07 October 2010 - 21:10
Jeff's post makes excellent points and is well thought out. I don't know what a misogynist is( I'm not looking it up and spell check tells me you spelt it wrong both times), but why should feelings or opinions be danced around politely when many breeders here are killing the breed. Most of SL folks here use dumbass reasoning to justify what they're doing as correct. Most of us "crazy working line people" can smell the BS from a mile away. All that it comes down to is show us the proof, one, two or even 100 examples of a SL that can work isn't proof of breeding in the right direction. There's individual working studs that have produced that many dogs.
), but why should feelings or opinions be danced around politely when many breeders here are killing the breed. Most of SL folks here use dumbass reasoning to justify what they're doing as correct. Most of us "crazy working line people" can smell the BS from a mile away. All that it comes down to is show us the proof, one, two or even 100 examples of a SL that can work isn't proof of breeding in the right direction. There's individual working studs that have produced that many dogs. by Felloffher on 08 October 2010 - 01:10
^^^^ You have the internet, they can still be found.^^^^
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