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by Love My Canine on 31 December 2010 - 04:12
Wow,This is still going on. My question would be what is a German Shepherd Dog? Is he a sport dog,a police dog,is he a personal protection dog,is he a herding dog,is he a family pet,disabled sevice assistance dog,is he a search and rescue dog,is he a bomb detection dog,is he a military dog. Or should a properly bred GSD be all these things. It always makes me laugh when I see breeders and trainers label a puppy as "pet quality". I train for mobility service assistance and I can tell you that some of the best dogs I have trained where labeled "pet dog". I would welcome anyone with your Schutzhund 3 dog or your french ring dog, to bring your dog with me and experience the life of a service dog real work that is often times very boring for the dog.. Alot of what a dog becomes is training. Don't get me wrong, I love sport, and my personal dog is training for schutzhund. But a German Shepherd dog should be able to wear many hats.
by Love My Canine on 31 December 2010 - 04:12
***DELETED***
TOS # 9: "Please keep your language clean and decent. This includes personal inflammatory language as well as obscenities."
TOS # 9: "Please keep your language clean and decent. This includes personal inflammatory language as well as obscenities."
by Jeff Oehlsen on 31 December 2010 - 04:12
Quote: Jeff, so every dog is the same and they all bring total prey to the table and every dog has to have the fear of God put into them? Hmmm, interesting.
This is what scares me. You can get that, from what I said. Scary.
This is what scares me. You can get that, from what I said. Scary.
by OGBS on 31 December 2010 - 04:12
Jeff,
I have a couple of questions for you. Not arguments or trying to make you look bad. These are legit questions for you.
I am trying to understand where you are coming from with this.
Most of the complaints about Schutzhund today are that the dogs are working too much in prey, or only in prey and are not as tough as they used to be because of too much prey and therefore it is watering down the breed and the test of breedworthiness (if that is a word). What I keep hearing you say is that working in prey only is great (correct if I am wrong here). So, are you saying that Schutzhund isn't a good test of a dog because there isn't enough prey? I am confused about this.
The second thing that I am curious about is the object guard in the various ring sports. I know that a lot of ring sport trainers, especially those with lofty goals, will generally use at least one, or, maybe two electric collars on their dog to train this. One around the neck and one around the abdomen. These collars are on constant and usually at a mid to high level. I understand why it is done (a ring trainer explained it to me), but, to you, is this good training or is it crap training? Doesn't this type of training also go against what you have said about a dog being "made"?
edited to read, "electric collars" instead of, "prong collars"
I have a couple of questions for you. Not arguments or trying to make you look bad. These are legit questions for you.
I am trying to understand where you are coming from with this.
Most of the complaints about Schutzhund today are that the dogs are working too much in prey, or only in prey and are not as tough as they used to be because of too much prey and therefore it is watering down the breed and the test of breedworthiness (if that is a word). What I keep hearing you say is that working in prey only is great (correct if I am wrong here). So, are you saying that Schutzhund isn't a good test of a dog because there isn't enough prey? I am confused about this.
The second thing that I am curious about is the object guard in the various ring sports. I know that a lot of ring sport trainers, especially those with lofty goals, will generally use at least one, or, maybe two electric collars on their dog to train this. One around the neck and one around the abdomen. These collars are on constant and usually at a mid to high level. I understand why it is done (a ring trainer explained it to me), but, to you, is this good training or is it crap training? Doesn't this type of training also go against what you have said about a dog being "made"?
edited to read, "electric collars" instead of, "prong collars"
by Jeff Oehlsen on 31 December 2010 - 06:12
Quote: Most of the complaints about Schutzhund today are that the dogs are working too much in prey, or only in prey and are not as tough as they used to be because of too much prey and therefore it is watering down the breed and the test of breedworthiness.
Maybe some of the reason that they are not as tough as they used to be is because of what they did to Sch. If you ever get a chance to go and look at performances of some of the top producers of the past, they are not as flashy as some of the performers today, that are not strong dogs, or strong producers. That is because people have become better trainers.
THe problem with prey is not prey drive, it is the fact that because people are better trainers, and can use prey drive to "create" a better looking performance through shaping a behavior. This is a tricky subject, as you can see, because shaping and training are pretty much the same thing. The problem with shaping a behavior like the bark and hold is that you can create through shaping a dog that appears to be dead serious. Where as if you trained the bark and hold, you would teach the dog to not bite, and to bark. A really thin line to walk. When you go beyond that, and reward ONLY a strong bark, and use methods of frustration to GET that bark, you are now shaping the behavior, and not training the bark and hold.
Quote: So, are you saying that Schutzhund isn't a good test of a dog because there isn't enough prey?
No, it is because people can "make" a hold and bark like in Bart's video that looks good, and there is nothing there. It is because we are not seeing what the dog would do on it's own, after being "trained" to not bite and to bark. Prey has nothing to do with it.
Quote: I know that a lot of ring sport trainers, especially those with lofty goals, will generally use at least one, or, maybe two electric collars on their dog to train this. One around the neck and one around the abdomen. These collars are on constant and usually at a mid to high level. I understand why it is done (a ring trainer explained it to me), but, to you, is this good training or is it crap training? Doesn't this type of training also go against what you have said about a dog being "made"?
I am not looking at an OG and going that is an amazing dog. LOOK at his power. : ) I am normally thinking how jealous I am of that person for being able to train it so well, and how well they were able to get the dog to understand the nightmare stupid thing. LOL
People judge the dog by how he guards in the blind, which is really really obvious in this thread. I believe that molly pointed out that a dog that does not guard well has a nerve issue. That is absolutely hysterical, considering the dogs in FR just have to find the decoy and bark one time. I am sure that any one of them could be taught to bounce in front of the decoy in no time. What is not considered, is that the decoy escapes out of the blind, and what a dog does in Sch doesn't work in FR, or they would use it. THink about that for a minute. You have a Sch person like molly that is sure that it is a nerve issue, and then you have all of the FR people who do not use it, as it is not effective. The decoy waits till the dog bounces, knocks him with a knee, and is gone. How many points did he lose ? in the top levels of ring, there is no room for error. If the sch bark and hold was super solid, and the dogs would not lose any meters on the escape................. See what I am getting at ?
Hope that helps.
Maybe some of the reason that they are not as tough as they used to be is because of what they did to Sch. If you ever get a chance to go and look at performances of some of the top producers of the past, they are not as flashy as some of the performers today, that are not strong dogs, or strong producers. That is because people have become better trainers.
THe problem with prey is not prey drive, it is the fact that because people are better trainers, and can use prey drive to "create" a better looking performance through shaping a behavior. This is a tricky subject, as you can see, because shaping and training are pretty much the same thing. The problem with shaping a behavior like the bark and hold is that you can create through shaping a dog that appears to be dead serious. Where as if you trained the bark and hold, you would teach the dog to not bite, and to bark. A really thin line to walk. When you go beyond that, and reward ONLY a strong bark, and use methods of frustration to GET that bark, you are now shaping the behavior, and not training the bark and hold.
Quote: So, are you saying that Schutzhund isn't a good test of a dog because there isn't enough prey?
No, it is because people can "make" a hold and bark like in Bart's video that looks good, and there is nothing there. It is because we are not seeing what the dog would do on it's own, after being "trained" to not bite and to bark. Prey has nothing to do with it.
Quote: I know that a lot of ring sport trainers, especially those with lofty goals, will generally use at least one, or, maybe two electric collars on their dog to train this. One around the neck and one around the abdomen. These collars are on constant and usually at a mid to high level. I understand why it is done (a ring trainer explained it to me), but, to you, is this good training or is it crap training? Doesn't this type of training also go against what you have said about a dog being "made"?
I am not looking at an OG and going that is an amazing dog. LOOK at his power. : ) I am normally thinking how jealous I am of that person for being able to train it so well, and how well they were able to get the dog to understand the nightmare stupid thing. LOL
People judge the dog by how he guards in the blind, which is really really obvious in this thread. I believe that molly pointed out that a dog that does not guard well has a nerve issue. That is absolutely hysterical, considering the dogs in FR just have to find the decoy and bark one time. I am sure that any one of them could be taught to bounce in front of the decoy in no time. What is not considered, is that the decoy escapes out of the blind, and what a dog does in Sch doesn't work in FR, or they would use it. THink about that for a minute. You have a Sch person like molly that is sure that it is a nerve issue, and then you have all of the FR people who do not use it, as it is not effective. The decoy waits till the dog bounces, knocks him with a knee, and is gone. How many points did he lose ? in the top levels of ring, there is no room for error. If the sch bark and hold was super solid, and the dogs would not lose any meters on the escape................. See what I am getting at ?
Hope that helps.
by steve1 on 31 December 2010 - 07:12
Has no one considered TOM van't LEEFDAALHOF. Winner of the WUSV. Father of winner of the WUSV and G Father of the Winner of the WUSV, but i somehow do not think many of you Guys in the USA rate the WUSV very highly as a Compliment to a dogs work, That is the impression i get since i started on this board,
Steve1
Steve1
by duke1965 on 31 December 2010 - 07:12
steve , WUSV is about the best trained dogs , not about the best dogs , I can capture all the quality in your post in one word , ronny
by Jeff Oehlsen on 31 December 2010 - 08:12
I like Tom a lot.
by steve1 on 31 December 2010 - 14:12
duke1965
No' you thought wrongly, Ronny never entered my head it is the Dog that i think is great as i do the likes of others long time gone before him, It was the huge amount of Children and G Children of Tom which i was thinking of that are or have done well in Europe. I cannot say outside specially in the USA if they are doing any good,
And Duke if a dog wins the WUSV himself, Breeds a Dog to win the WUSV and its G Son wins the WUSV does that not say to you the right Genes are there forget the Trainer of the Dogs If not there is no other way of saying that Dog is a Producer of Quality Dogs, It is the same in any Species You require Breeders Animals who pass there Genes on to the next generation, Many Dogs work well but do not pass on the Quality they process to be able to carry on the line, it is known as a Producer,
If not i have strived in vain in my other sport and the current family Is winning not only for us but for people in the UK, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. all with the same common base They are a Producers who pass there winning genes on. Saying that you must know what you are doing not only by Breeding but the ultimate test WORKING
And remember these words for they are true
Breeding is GOLD, Work is SILVER
Steve1
No' you thought wrongly, Ronny never entered my head it is the Dog that i think is great as i do the likes of others long time gone before him, It was the huge amount of Children and G Children of Tom which i was thinking of that are or have done well in Europe. I cannot say outside specially in the USA if they are doing any good,
And Duke if a dog wins the WUSV himself, Breeds a Dog to win the WUSV and its G Son wins the WUSV does that not say to you the right Genes are there forget the Trainer of the Dogs If not there is no other way of saying that Dog is a Producer of Quality Dogs, It is the same in any Species You require Breeders Animals who pass there Genes on to the next generation, Many Dogs work well but do not pass on the Quality they process to be able to carry on the line, it is known as a Producer,
If not i have strived in vain in my other sport and the current family Is winning not only for us but for people in the UK, Scotland, Ireland and Wales. all with the same common base They are a Producers who pass there winning genes on. Saying that you must know what you are doing not only by Breeding but the ultimate test WORKING
And remember these words for they are true
Breeding is GOLD, Work is SILVER
Steve1
by duke1965 on 31 December 2010 - 15:12
unfortunately steve , I have to disagree , you cant compare dogtraining with racehorsetraining or homingpigeons
Tom produced good but also by the numbers of his breedings , but tell me about all the great Eros offspring other than como
and please tell everybody here about ronnys dedication to training ,how he works his dogs multiple times a day , seven days a week , the succes is ronny"s , not so much the dogs
Im not saying the dogs are no good , but in this case ,breeding is bronze , training is gold
Tom produced good but also by the numbers of his breedings , but tell me about all the great Eros offspring other than como
and please tell everybody here about ronnys dedication to training ,how he works his dogs multiple times a day , seven days a week , the succes is ronny"s , not so much the dogs
Im not saying the dogs are no good , but in this case ,breeding is bronze , training is gold
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