showline bred with workingline - Page 33

Thanks Gustav, for the info on the A-litter "vom Klämmle". I believe that Dr. Goldfarb owned two of them. Sister Atrice was his foundation. If I recall correctly, she died young due to cancer.
Yes, Canto was often blamed for weak temperament but one of my alltime favorites Fanto vom Hirschel went back to him as well and he definitely produced good character. Some workingline breeders went to him as well.
As to the hemophilia: To this day, it is a subject people don't talk about. In the past, when I broached that subject about Canto and this inherited disease most just shrugged their shoulders. But I do believe it is not prevelant in our breed anymore. I have never encountered it and do not know of any who do - in the U.S. and Germany. And trust me, with my luck it would have hit me if still around >grin<.
Chris

Maywood, where ever I look I see that Berta was surveyed? Where did you hear that she was not? The next time I talk to a friend in Germany I will ask to check in the SV Genetics.

Yes Chris, I knew Frigga v Silbersee who was a Fanto daughter. Frigga had very nice temperament and I also owned a Fanto granddaughter in the nineties that your husband showed for me under Leonard Sweikert and placed VP2. She also had very nice temperament.

 Quote: Yes, Canto was often blamed for weak temperament but one of my alltime favorites Fanto vom Hirschel went back to him as well and he definitely produced good character. Some workingline breeders went to him as well.

Like who ?

For some mad reason, working-dog.eu has just released a notice that they have compiled information on the last decade's showline championships.

http://www.working-dog.eu/meistersch_anz_jahr.php?tID=76&tName=SV+-+Bundessieger+Hauptzuchtschau

Hi Chris,

You know, after doing a little more research on my own, I may be wrong about Berta not being Koered as well.  Otherwise how would Landa Wienerau (Liane's Sister) go VA1?  That would make no sense either!!

I am basing this all on Walter Martin's own statements when describing how he got started in dog breeding from an old video recording of a seminar that I have in my library.  In this seminar video, he clearly states that his foundation bitch (Berta) was a bitch that was "not recommended for breeding".  I interpreted this as her not being Koered.  But perhaps this is not what Walter Martin was actually stating after all.

Anyway, I have a respectable knowledge of the history of the breed but I am no historian by any stretch nor would I hold myself out as one over time.  I just remember reading about this issue of why Canto didn't make VA when I was a kid and for some reason it was stuck in my brain that it had something to do with a technicality in his ancestry as opposed to there actually being something wrong with him (of course his sister going VA completely blows that theory out of the water).  Couple that with Walter Martin’s own statements concerning his foundation bitch and this is how I ended up coming up with the wrong conclusion.

Therefore, maybe Dr. Willis is right in his own speculation that Canto didn’t make VA simply because he was faulty.  We may simply never really know the real reason.  Interesting.

Jeff,
I can't tell you which workingline breeders had offspring out of Fanto and how they did as I did not check on that. And to tell you the truth, I do not feel like looking through his progeny list (too much work) but if you want to - be my guest:
www.working-dog.eu/kinder-details/29098/Fanto-vom-Hirschel and a lot more on here www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/progeny/55.html . Fanto was known for producing drive and he was an alternative to the much used Uran and Quando Arminius lines. I personally had two litters by him. The first one died tragically of parvo at 8 weeks old and the second one was my first F-litter who V-Frigga vom Silbersee, SchH3 KKL1a was out which Gustav mentioned. She was worked by Jim Hill who really liked her a lot (at least that is what he had told me -;) .

Gustav,
I did not know that Joe showed a dog for you. It has been so long. Even more of a reason for you to stop by. You need to meet Joe's pride and joy - Onyx.

Maywood,
I really do not know about Berta but you are right. I forgot about Landa. I read a lot and store it away in my head and when threads like these come along, I remember. But I never make statements without checking up on them!
Chris

 Silbersee--some of  the former show lines were not to shabby -- and you probably know this -- i had a Fanto Hirshel grandaughter from Noriswand father .. she did french ring sport , 9mm gunfire , bamboo stick hits !! AGAIN NOT SHABBY WORK FOR A SHOWLINE !!  another male from 2 x VA 1  Lasso Neuenberg grandfather / VA Jeck Noricum grandfather who did Sch , french ring , personal protection . used three languages , had V structure  , perhaps VA ...ditto --not shabby .. So .. you can't talk to the die hard working line people in general about value of show line .. they have their minds like stone !! PS -- i lean to neither show or working ... they both have merit and shortcomings !@!

I have seen some nice working dogs out of Jeck, but you had to balance Jeck with hip improvers, IMO.

 Quote:  V-Frigga vom Silbersee, SchH3 KKL1a was out which Gustav mentioned.

The system of proof, in this case Sch, is broken, and no longer means anything. Do you have any video of this dog working ?

by the time this thead is over, I wonder what those will call their new "super breed" of dogs, formerly knows as German Shepherds.