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by maywood on 17 August 2010 - 04:08
Gustav, Prager, Jeff, Darylehret have any of you guys been to a German style show lately and actually got a good look at today's show line shepherds in person? Or are you guys just basing your judgements on the videos and pictures you have seen lately? I'm just curious.
by darylehret on 17 August 2010 - 04:08
I don't do shows.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 17 August 2010 - 05:08
I am too busy babying my dogs. LOL
Why in the name of all that is holy, would I, after this long discourse on how embarrassing the show lines are, waste my precious money on an abomination ?
Why in the name of all that is holy, would I, after this long discourse on how embarrassing the show lines are, waste my precious money on an abomination ?
by Gustav on 17 August 2010 - 12:08
Maywood,
In past 10 years I have attended numerous Seiger, Regional, and local German conformation shows. At the Greater Phila. Conformation show in 2004 or 5, I showed my sable homebred in the 6 to 9 month class. Out of 7 or 8 dogs (all black and red except him) he went VP-2. I did this for socialization purposes and to support my friend Jim Hill. Would these dogs be the dogs that you seem to imply I am not knowledgable about. Oh, BTW, that same puppy is with the NY State Police.
I also had a dog I bred go SG-1 in the South Eastern Regional conformation show this year. He is also a sable, of Czech/West lineage. Excellent working temperament.
Enough of me and my dogs, either what I write makes sense or it doesn't make sense. I have constantly said I have no problem with dogs that are shown that represent the legacy of the breed in mind, body, and spirit.
Breeding for extremes as Prager said is not German Shepherd breeding, this is my view also and it comes with a price usually in health and temperament.(And that unbalance in temperament can be at both ends of the spectrum).
I don't believe in showlines as a breeding type because the breed wasn't made to show. I believe in breeding good strong German Shepherds, Some of which may have the conformation to show, but breeding for show itself is a means to destruction of working qualites. Always has, always will, and unfortunately this dog was made to work not to be shown. Its not really complicated, its just a matter of peoples ego's and need for self gratification at the expense of the breed.
In past 10 years I have attended numerous Seiger, Regional, and local German conformation shows. At the Greater Phila. Conformation show in 2004 or 5, I showed my sable homebred in the 6 to 9 month class. Out of 7 or 8 dogs (all black and red except him) he went VP-2. I did this for socialization purposes and to support my friend Jim Hill. Would these dogs be the dogs that you seem to imply I am not knowledgable about. Oh, BTW, that same puppy is with the NY State Police.
I also had a dog I bred go SG-1 in the South Eastern Regional conformation show this year. He is also a sable, of Czech/West lineage. Excellent working temperament.
Enough of me and my dogs, either what I write makes sense or it doesn't make sense. I have constantly said I have no problem with dogs that are shown that represent the legacy of the breed in mind, body, and spirit.
Breeding for extremes as Prager said is not German Shepherd breeding, this is my view also and it comes with a price usually in health and temperament.(And that unbalance in temperament can be at both ends of the spectrum).
I don't believe in showlines as a breeding type because the breed wasn't made to show. I believe in breeding good strong German Shepherds, Some of which may have the conformation to show, but breeding for show itself is a means to destruction of working qualites. Always has, always will, and unfortunately this dog was made to work not to be shown. Its not really complicated, its just a matter of peoples ego's and need for self gratification at the expense of the breed.
by maywood on 17 August 2010 - 21:08
Sorry Gustav, I wasn’t trying to imply you didn’t know what you were talking about. Quite the contrary, I am a huge fan of yours. Between You and Preston, I’m not sure it gets much better as far as owning the breadth of knowledge you two seem to have concerning the history of the breed. I find your posts, and I think many would agree, fascinating and informative. I can tell by your delivery and the way you carefully choose your words that you indeed have a healthy respect for all the different facets of the breed, not just working and show. In fact, I’ll read your posts several times just to make sure I got your meaning right. I was just curious if you were still actively participating or at least attending and keeping up with the current show scene is all. Obviously you are and it’s evident in your posts. I guess I just wanted to hear it from the horse’s mouth so to speak as I’m sure others did to. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and wisdom with your fellow shepherd enthusiasts. My hat's off to you.
BTW, if I remember correctly, the real reason Canto Wienerau never made VA was because his great-grandmother Berta Lorscher Sand (Dixie’s Mother) was never Koered, despite what the PDB incorrectly states.
Cheers! :-)
BTW, if I remember correctly, the real reason Canto Wienerau never made VA was because his great-grandmother Berta Lorscher Sand (Dixie’s Mother) was never Koered, despite what the PDB incorrectly states.
Cheers! :-)
by Silbersee on 17 August 2010 - 23:08
Maywood,
Bertha vom Lorscher Sand was SchH3, V-rated and KKL1. Even if you did remember correctly, it would not matter since the "Koer und Leistungszucht" (survey and working breeding) only accounts for the first two generations (parents and grandparents). And how would you then explain the fact that Canto's littersister Celly was VA-rated.
Contrary to what others wrote here, Canto's bitework was only sufficient in his first survey. He was not described as the most self-sure dog, neither were his parents or his sister Cira (described as "very nervous") - see Willis, "A Genetic History", page 83, 1991 edition. Willis also surmised that what cost Canto his VA-rating was his being very loose in the rear and cowhocked.
Bertha vom Lorscher Sand was SchH3, V-rated and KKL1. Even if you did remember correctly, it would not matter since the "Koer und Leistungszucht" (survey and working breeding) only accounts for the first two generations (parents and grandparents). And how would you then explain the fact that Canto's littersister Celly was VA-rated.
Contrary to what others wrote here, Canto's bitework was only sufficient in his first survey. He was not described as the most self-sure dog, neither were his parents or his sister Cira (described as "very nervous") - see Willis, "A Genetic History", page 83, 1991 edition. Willis also surmised that what cost Canto his VA-rating was his being very loose in the rear and cowhocked.
by Rik on 18 August 2010 - 03:08
maywood, I agree, it is very informative to hear from people who have experience and no axe to grind.
I appreciate very much these kind of people who take the time to educate folks like me who are not so knowledgeable in European dogs.
Best,
Rick Atchley
I appreciate very much these kind of people who take the time to educate folks like me who are not so knowledgeable in European dogs.
Best,
Rick Atchley
by maywood on 18 August 2010 - 05:08
Yeah Silbersee, you must be right, my logic is incorrect. I forgot Canto had a sister that went VA. However, Berta was never Koered this I know is true so I was just giving my best college try at guessing that maybe this was the reason. I was 14 years old when I first heard this question and answer and this was the best I could recollect. Hey, at least I tried. Please Gustav, tell us all the answer. The suspense is killing all of us.
by nostress on 18 August 2010 - 05:08
Thanks Prager for your words!
" There is absolutely no reason why the same dog should not be able to perform superbly in sport, or police or as family pet, of S&R. or....what ever depending on which such path of training you would take him / her. Also if the dog is bred specifically for only each such purpose and omitting the others ( like top sport but is unable to live in the house or S&R is bred to be docile and lost his territoriality) than that equals to a destruction of the breed.
Also breeding for any extreme equals a destruction of the breed.
German Shepherd must be preserved as a versatile working dog. Not a extreme dog. Extreme dog is good in one but not the other. That may be Malinois but not a GDS."
You have put in great words exactely what most of us love about the GSD, even if sometimes we get carried away in one direction or the other. We want our dogs to be friendly and social, to be able to guard our proprety, to accompany us in our sport activityes and also to be able to save lives. This is the GSD!
I think that the GSD breeders should be exactely like the GSD! They should be social and friendly and oppened to all the activityes that this breed can perform.
by Gustav on 18 August 2010 - 13:08
Maywood, Thx for the kind words, I try to look at things balanced without sacrificing the essence.
In regards to Canto, first let me say I was confused (age does this..smile) when I inserted Zilly as cause for Canto. Zilly v Klamme was bred to Canto and produced the A litter vom Klamme. Many oldtimers in American ring remember Assalan from that breeding,who went Select twice and Select 2 or 3 one year. Assalan could have been a candidate for VA in Germany because of his mother Zilly, who had notorious weak temperament and I think failed her BS, made him inelgible. Anyway, the brother Argus v Klamme was a much better dog in temperament taking after the Wienerau side.Sidenote, Zilly came to America where she got her American championship, and Assalan was a soft dog and produced soft dogs even here in the states.
Canto....I think Chris is most accurate in his denial of VA , a combination of structural issues and temperament. But, he was a very exciting mover. Canto was comprised of a soft parent and a good parent in terms of temperament. This was always a downfall of his as a stud, the fluctuation in temperament he produced as evidenced by the vom Klamme litter.(Assalan was very soft and Argus was a strong dog and produced strong).
Now contrary to many views the soft side of Canto in the immediate, didnot come from his mother Liane Wienerau, but rather from his sire, Hein v Konigsbruch. Hein was a very nice physical specimen, who moved well, but was notoriously soft in temperament. In 1968, I think Dr. Funk gave him a SG-7 in the Seiger show, and the next year I think Dr. Rommel gave him a "G" rating because of his "lack of working" ability. Canto was said to have inherited the temperament of his father while his VA sister was said to be strong like his mother Liane, in terms of temperament. Remember, Liane was sired by Jalk who was known for producing good temperament.
In conclusion, it is easy to see how Canto could be part of a very good program that wanted to mine his excellent structural resources and use him with strong females in temperament. But, he should have never become a "pillar" in terms of breeding over generations as the weakness of temperament and the health issues(hemophiliac),(which to be fair was found out later), are too much for the breed to compensate for, if you continually go to the well or derivatives of that well. JMO
In regards to Canto, first let me say I was confused (age does this..smile) when I inserted Zilly as cause for Canto. Zilly v Klamme was bred to Canto and produced the A litter vom Klamme. Many oldtimers in American ring remember Assalan from that breeding,who went Select twice and Select 2 or 3 one year. Assalan could have been a candidate for VA in Germany because of his mother Zilly, who had notorious weak temperament and I think failed her BS, made him inelgible. Anyway, the brother Argus v Klamme was a much better dog in temperament taking after the Wienerau side.Sidenote, Zilly came to America where she got her American championship, and Assalan was a soft dog and produced soft dogs even here in the states.
Canto....I think Chris is most accurate in his denial of VA , a combination of structural issues and temperament. But, he was a very exciting mover. Canto was comprised of a soft parent and a good parent in terms of temperament. This was always a downfall of his as a stud, the fluctuation in temperament he produced as evidenced by the vom Klamme litter.(Assalan was very soft and Argus was a strong dog and produced strong).
Now contrary to many views the soft side of Canto in the immediate, didnot come from his mother Liane Wienerau, but rather from his sire, Hein v Konigsbruch. Hein was a very nice physical specimen, who moved well, but was notoriously soft in temperament. In 1968, I think Dr. Funk gave him a SG-7 in the Seiger show, and the next year I think Dr. Rommel gave him a "G" rating because of his "lack of working" ability. Canto was said to have inherited the temperament of his father while his VA sister was said to be strong like his mother Liane, in terms of temperament. Remember, Liane was sired by Jalk who was known for producing good temperament.
In conclusion, it is easy to see how Canto could be part of a very good program that wanted to mine his excellent structural resources and use him with strong females in temperament. But, he should have never become a "pillar" in terms of breeding over generations as the weakness of temperament and the health issues(hemophiliac),(which to be fair was found out later), are too much for the breed to compensate for, if you continually go to the well or derivatives of that well. JMO
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