showline bred with workingline - Page 31

Agreed Hans.  Part of the boondoggle on the showlines is precisely due to the habit of breeding for a few traits. 

Steve,
I will tell you that from my litters I expect dogs that can do police work and also dogs that can do seeing-eye work. Its about nerve strength and not just drives. I don't breed for over the top prey drive. I have people that get dogs from me with the purpose of Therapy dogs and SAR. I just pick them out a dog that doesn't show the stronger aggression traits early and with the good nerve the litter has in general and the dogs do well. Still. remember that seeing-eye dogs are trained extensively and a good bred German Shepherd that is trained extensively whether it is herding, seeing-eye, or police work is going to do fine. the training will channel the drive and nerve into productive dogs.
Missbeeb, probably half the dogs that are titled in the U. S. are titled by women. Many to a very high level and some to national levels and champions. Some of the women are not small or young, but what they have is COMMITMENT to train so the dog can reach its potential. I'm not saying that all owners of German Shepherds have to have this commitment, but if you are a breeder than you should have a working committment to the breed if for no other reason than to understand working trits and more importantly the lack of working traits. JMO

 Quote: 

Medium, expressive, good character. Beautiful harmony, good topline, good croup situation. Very nice chest equipment, correct front and rear. Broad and powerful clubs. Evident in the movement in the front and rear loose. Rear and cow hocked up and removal. The essence is lively and at ease, the fighting instinct is present in ausgepägtem courage. WA 71: Forehand strengthened, not loose, he gets up and goes back Hock. Ejecting and toss the hindquarters can not be determined. Fighting spirit pronounced

This is from Canto's description.

You think the BS'd the sch dogs back then ?? I have no faith.

Canto von der Wienerau?
No there is a dog from era when GSD was not divided into Show/ work/ sport. Do you have any doubt that this dog could run, jump, and had endurance up to jing jang? I'll bet that he could bite too.
http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/141.html

Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

dayrle. been away for a while. I see that you have the ability to participate in an intelligent discourse and present your views and goals, rather than just attack everyone and their dogs who do not have the same goals as you.

I apologize for my comments to you.

The world of the GSD has grown so large that it encompasses, well, the whole world. There is no way that the founder of the breed could envision the impact his creation would have.

There is no way that "one" dog will cover this spectrum of his uses. For the person who wants a dog that "knocks the helper over" these traits must be bred for first. The same for the top sport dogs, military and LEO (KNPV).

I am a S/L person, but I was appalled and saddened that so many (not all) are willing to accept poor character in the S/L for the sake of gait and type. It is the same as has happened to the American Show Shepherd, except they gave up even type and health for gait.

So, I do not have the answer. I do know that the standard covers not only character, but also structure. To take parts of it and develop  "absolutes" is no different than what many "religions" have done and are based on today.

Best to you,
Rick Atchley

With all due respect Rik,
I disagree vehemently with you, even so what you are saying is true in current state of affairs. But I would like to stress out that this should not be or must not be a goal of a breeder of a GSD! There is absolutely no reason why the same  dog should not be able to  perform superbly in sport, or police or as family pet, of S&R. or....what ever depending on which such path of training you would take him / her. Also if the dog is bred specifically for only each such purpose and omitting the others ( like top sport but is unable to live in the house or S&R is bred to be docile and lost his territoriality) than that equals to  a destruction of the breed.
 Also breeding for any extreme  equals a destruction of the breed.
German Shepherd must be preserved as a versatile working dog. Not a extreme dog. Extreme dog is good in one but not the other. That may be Malinois but not a GDS.  I do never understand the perception of people from "modern" society who think that people 100 years or 1000 years ago were primitives in comparison to us. I actually believe that the opposite is true. Max v  Stephanitz had vision of a dog which includes even our confused world. There were, back then, wars, and police, and sport, and herding, S&R, and family in need of guard  dogs just as much, if not more then they are  today.    
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

I also believe that some  such dogs which we have now are better than they were back then. That is due to efforts of breeders who have same vision as Stephanitz had.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

@Hans

Thanks for your input.  I know very little about the Fidelco breeding program, only a little bit of the early history and that their program is based on German Workinglines.  Recently I came upon a dog that has been used in their program by the name of  Eon vom Löwenhof, owned by Pia Blackwell of Vom Rheinland kennel.  I take that to mean that theirs is not a "closed" program and that they do use dogs other than their own in their program.  Anyone interested can see his pedigree here:

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/455258.html



@Gustav

Thank you as well.  I have read some of your input on this forum in archived threads and know that you have a long history with the breed.  What I do not know is what bloodlines you are currently using in your breeding program.  Do you have a website where someone could look into what you are working with?

Thanks Again,

SteveO

Prager, I will never disagree with you or your vision of the GSD. You have far too much experience and dedication for me to dispute.

2 years ago, while waiting at Atlanta airport for my bitch to come in, I met a LEO, also waiting for a dog from you.  We had quite a good conservation (concerning you). He said all their dogs come from you and gave me your card with very high recommendation.

Maybe you misunderstood what I am saying, yes, in theory, the correct GSD should be able to do it all. In reality, because of the many different directions taken we choose to take, that perfect GSD who meets all needs, has yet to show up.

Best,
Rick Atchley

I see that you have the ability to participate in an intelligent discourse and present your views and goals, rather than just attack everyone and their dogs who do not have the same goals as you.

Unlike you, sir, I don't believe I attacked anyone at any time during the course of this discussion.  I did however, present my viewpoint about the general character of showline enthusiasts, and that still stands.  I can appreciate other views, but I'll remain stubborn on one point: this breed is meant to be a workingdog, and should retain the necessary characteristics to be so.

Get a load of the hammock on this dog!