workingline best new stud - Page 30

Dogs "smell fear" and I read ********. If we weren't talking sport, I wouldn't ask for focus and eye contact at all. Why is it that the dog can sense every movement a total stranger is going to do, but has to look to his handler that works with him everyday??? Answer that one. You used the analogy of a professional athlete? I played semi-pro sports and I can tell you that it took time, but if you played with the same players(handler), you start to know where they are and how they play without looking at them. It's the opponent that brings the unknown. And if a dog is 90% nose, what % do the other senses hold? I appreciate the education!

If a dog is "real" it would bite anywhere when the helper moved vs biting the sleeve, I really believe that. The legs and torso are right in front of the dog, why wait and target a sleeve? The stomach is right in front of the dogs mouth! Forget the "real" dog stuff, it's fun sport.

 Quote: But are you telling me that dog was trained to look at the handler instead of the helper the whole time?

WOW. Ok, I will back up a bit. The dog has to find the decoy and bark one time and stay within 2 meters half circle.

The dog looked away from the decoy. No where in the rules does it say that the dog has to look at the decoy. I do not know that the dog was looking at the handler, might be something in the crowd, I don't know.

So, after your major gaffe in thinking, you are going to ask me if the dog is "trained" to look at the handler ?

If the judge thinks that the dog is not paying attention, the decoy can be told to escape early. More points lost. That is what it looks like without all the extra training to make the dog look like he gives a shit.



Quote: I want a real dog that is real in bite work. A dog that keeps looking to the handler when the decoy is on the field and should be guarding usually has some issues or poor training.

How many dogs have you trained in FR ? That is what we are talking about. Do you use a B&H where you work ? What does the B&H look like when the requirements are to bark at least one time ? So, because the dog has not been trained to bounce in front of the decoy, he is less "real" right ? So, the other remark, is the dog has poor training.

Yes, of course. The dog gets a high score in a Malinois sport, and of course, he has poor training. It couldn't be the requirements were met. The same requirements that have made the Mal a world leader in sports and police work, of course, you would know better. No, it is better to train a fakey bark and hold than to see how the dog would guard naturally.

That is the whole point of my argument. People don't see a dog that is doing sport, and has no requirement to be vigilant, no, they just see that it does not look like a shaped behavior that they are familiar with and of course, the dog is not real. This is a big reason we still go to EU to get dogs. People cannot see the forest for the trees.

 Quote: Absolutely - it is either poor training, or a nerve problem , if the dog looks away from the helper - he should be totally focused on the helper, even for sport. For points, and because a dog that looks away should be "looked at" carefully for the reason, before considering him for breeding.

Or, the dog was not trained to do the exercise the way you want to see it, and there is nothing wrong with the dog at all. BUT, all you see is what you know, which is the Sch bark and hold, and are unable to see what is in front of you, due to only having knowledge in one sport, AND can only see what is shown to you.

How far did the decoy get from that inattentive GSD ? LOL I guess you never have seen a GSD look away from their toy to get the other dog to try and take it. They are showing poor life skills and bad nerve when they do that. Couldn't be they are trying to get the other dog to try for it, no, that could never be it. 

Funny how when you do not train a dog to be a robot how I can see the obvious and you guys cannot.

Don ..first .. there are two different venues.. one sport , another handling the dog just plain 'ol everyday and then when your life  and the dogs life is at a critical context of life/death . awakwardly .. i was trying to make a point .. the best way to control the dog in sport and life is to as i explained teach self control and in doing that , where the dogs eyes go so dop the thoughts !! another point .. our dogs .. know us better than we know ourselves ... they read us better than we read ourselves ..not a bad partner to have that can almost read your mind and be in that synergy as they work . [ why do we not have to teach dogs for example not to an ticipate a recall] we talk to ouir dogs more often by keeping our mouths shut , now don't we !!   .. the dog is always fully aware of the handler and the decoy .. not only eyes  NOSE but ears.. have you ever seen the dog in your home look at you and then start barking out of the blue ??? most often .. [ and you know this DON- you're bating me ] ] the dog is percieving , most often hearing , something outside the home !!a dog can pick up your change in breadth , the dilation of your eyes , from 10 feet away knowsit  what you just ate .. again my point : when we interact with our dogs ...THINK DOG .. not as a person !! Then we will develop our relationship and come to understand our dogs and see THEM for what they are .. not what we think they are ..YES .. the opponent brings the unknown .. but that is why one has experience.. each dog is different .. each person .. in life in oreder to be sussesful -- you have but a moment to connect and understand that person / dog.. why does one think .. that even humans .. make judgements on first impresssions .. and most often correctly .. dogs are "true" .. they are always calculating and assessing. and mostlty the GSD ,.. that is what makes the breed . unlike my mal i had. GSDS are pensive, cognitive, problem silving canines . THAT is why they are the best canine in the world !! the ol' expression - you can't judge the book by the cove.. before we consider what a dog can do or not , what it is or not .. we need to take a true look internally and externally . berac use a dog looks at the handler .. could not mean "nerve problem .. you neeed to examine in the blink of an eye : the temeprament of ther dog , the personality of the trainer / how the dog was trained , what  was trained , the context they are in .. e.g maybe the dog has good nerve .. but the handler harsdhly and severly  over corrected the dog ... maybe the dog is looking at the handler because it is looking foer the command beacuase it is such high drive.  NOT EVERYTHING IS AS IT SEEMS TO BE ... close your eyes and listen !!

Wasko vom Eifelgrund (FO, P1, SCH III titled) is producing some really nice dogs, US Customs has been using him with very positive results and high percentages of the off spring raised from Wasko in their kennel, that pass their evaluation when they mature, if anyone is familiar with this test, they would agree, its very difficult.

Nice! You just reiterrated why I said the dog doesn't need to look at its handler. And I'm not the one that stated why the dog would be looking to the handler. I thought most experienced handlers would know why the dog is doing it. At least SchH got one thing right. The dog should be focused on the helper in the guards and side transport. JEFF, you state that we should let the dog naturally bring what it will to the guard? So explain your video the dog will not guard the diesel can, so you crack out the ball to teach the dog to bark and stay on the object to get the reward. How is that any different than what you are opposed to? Most dogs start in prey when they begin bitework. That doesn't mean that they don't naturally have defense.

 Wow Don, if you are not getting these basic concepts, I don't know what to tell you.

I get it! You are critcizing others for doing what you do. A fake guard, isn't that how you put it?

I can't believe I let myself get pulled back in. But here goes.  Jeff you are WRONG about defense.(PERIOD) If a helper/decoy comes at ANY dog they will go into defense. Defense doesn't mean that they have to fear for their life. It just means that they will defend themselves from attack. So those strong  dogs that you say are NOT AFRAID aren't quacking with fear but THEY ARE working in defense. You again assume incorrectly. I would never call a dog like you described as LOCKED IN PREY.  You also asked the question "does a dog bite hurt worse when a dog is in defense than in prey" HECK YAH it does. Ever been bitten by a dog in OB training going for his ball/tug? It's no where near as bad as taking one when the dogs doing bitework. Just like a human when you feel you have to defend against any attack you always put that little bit extra into it to end it as fast as you can. (that's taking it for granted that you've every done decoy work/been bitten.)


QUOTE:  "Well if the dog is barking at someone, then why all the added work"

Because that's what the rules ask for. Same as all the added work that the ringsport dogs are trained to do.

You talk about looking down on a dog that isn't "AFRAID OF THE SILLY WHIP." Then I guess I look down on my own dogs. You also talk about making it out of the blind. If, somehow you made it out of the blind with my male you wouldn't get a meter. You also assume because I and others do schutzhund that our dogs don't work on the suit, with hidden sleeves, in the woods.... WRONG

Quote:  "I understand that the Sch sport will always want a strong guard. I just don't like that it makes it so you have to fake one."

I can agree with you there. I feel the same way about some ringsport trainers that make fake behaviors in their dogs. Don't get me wrong I like a lot of the things in ring sprort and like to have fun with them with my dogs. There just isn't a venue for it in this area. As we know it's even smaller here in the States than SCH. FAKE is FAKE no matter what the sport. I just don't think that every H&B is a fake one.

I also think the statement "I don't need a dog for protection" is one of the dumbest statements I have ever heard in my life. I hear it a lot. Most people don't. I look at it like training a human boxer. You train him to shadow box and boy can he whip that shadow to a frazzel. But if he is out one night and has to actually defend himself and can't whip his way out of a wet paper sack. Do you really have any respect for him?

I hope I've made myself clear to you in this. If not sorry. We can computer train all day long and get no where. I don't care to post on it any longer. Don't recall where you're from but if you ever make it to Michigan I invite you to the Metro Detroit Sch. Club. I'd love to have you put on the suit and do some training, and get your dogs worked. I think we'd see that maybe we don't see things quite as differently as it appears.

Rick