showline bred with workingline - Page 30

@Gustav

For the sake of discussion, not argument, what do you think about the difference of drives/energy that might be considered optimal between a GSD that is employed as a Patrol K9 and one that is employed as a Seeing Eye Dog.  I do not have personal experience in either endeavor, so I don't presume to know what those differences might be.  I do know that the Fidelco organization which uses GSD's exclusively in their program of breeding, raising, and training GSD's as Guide Dogs describe their dogs as "A Breed Within A Breed" as a catch phrase and that their breeding program is based on German Workinglines.  I realize that this question is not really pertinent to the Showlines-Workinglines controversy, but I do think it is relevant to how breeders goals might differ depending on the intended use of their dogs.

Thanks in advance if you can contribute to my understanding in this matter.

SteveO

PS

If anybody else besides Gustav can contribute to this question please feel free to do so.  Please consider it an "Open Question" to the members of this forum.  Thanks again in advance to anyone who might contribute some input into this question.

maywood
Endurance in police work. I Czechoslovakia during communist era Z Pohranicni straze dogs were tracking and catching people ( I am sorry to say) over long distances on Czech X German border. Seemingly the endurance was a big issue. Thus Karl Hartl developed "Czechoslovakian wolf dog " cross between wolf and GSD. This resulted in super high endurance  animal by the way with great hips. They tested it once  by running it by the car for 40 km that is about 28 miles and when done and trying to put the dog into the car the dog took of after a rabbit and after short chase coughed it!. Now there is endurance. By the way,..please take a look that this breed (yes it is a breed now). It does not look like anything like a GSD in structure. He is almost perfect square , ... the most efficient shape after sphere and circle which could be put into a square or cube. Nothing like a show dog.
Well what is important about this is to know that if you change one trait then you will invariably change other traits too and often not for good!. Promotion of one gene will change more then one trait!  This dog was not consistent worker and the program was canceled since the agency realized that the endurance is not above all the most or only important quality and that well bred working GSD can just about always outrun a person. Again you must see the whole picture. Again this example is applicable to anyone who puts undue importance on single trait no matter how important it is. Like Hips, color, or endurance,.... for example.  
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com 
CZ wolf dog :->

 Ever notice that the nice threads get fuck all for views ?

Quote: Now, here's what you're missing imo...

I am not missing shit. You can make a pretty picture with a show dog, but he is still not cut out for this shit.

It all goes back to making excuses. Well, they COULD be........ no, they cannot. You are breeding a different dog, and saying that it is a GSD, with all the legendary things that go along with the breed, but you are selling a stuffed toy that moves.

Quote:  If Jimmy (and moi) can put in a reasonable performance, I'd enter a trial.

Here is another problem. "IF". This is not brain surgery. The dog should be able to do this. It is the minimum requirement for breeding. It takes time and effort to train a dog, but just because you put in the effort, does not mean that you should get a title. That is hard for some people to understand. It is about maintaining the standards for the sport, the standards for the breed.

There are some dogs, and they are just NOT going to title, they are not weak, but the opposite. They do not deserve the title either, but are the exception to the rule. Show dogs are too weak, too nervy, and people are out there somehow getting a title.

I watched a ring 3 exercise a couple of weeks ago, and the person got their 3. The nightmare for me was that the decoy work blew ass, it was a ring one with more exercises. The dog was border line out of control the whole time.

The person works very very hard to train her dog. She is a good person. Do you give the title away to this person ? She needed it, as she is going to be a judge in Mondio. That is pretty hard for people. OH MY GOD, WHAT IF SHE TAKES IT PERSONALLY ??

You see what I am saying ? I am a bastard for pointing out that the decoy work was absolute shit, the dog was out of control, and didn't really deserve to pass. If the decoys actually worked the dog, the dog would have failed many many more exercises. But with todays society, and everyone gets a trophy, the dog passed with an excellent score.

I think that this person is an asset to Mondio. Do I think she should be a judge ? Hell no, to weak a personality. They will bully her, and get her to pass shit dogs with decent scores.

What would you do ? Do you see how this parallels Sch about 30 years ago ???

In my lifetime, I have to see two sports lower the bar so that "people can have success. But what is it worth when you know it is crap ? How proud would you really be ? And EVEN WORSE, what if you really thought that was a performance worthy of the title ??

Shit goes down the drain pretty fast doesn't it ??

What were we talking about again ? Show line shitters, and how you want me to accept that it is ok for them to be around and bask in the glory of dogs so far beyond these curs reach ?? : ) 

OK Jeff... my doubts are in me, not Jimmy!  I have had a little training with the "real" working guys (not SL people) and they are confident in my dog and probably too polite (not something you'd be hindered by) to tell me to lose weight and get with the programme!

Real WL guys are out there day in day out training their dogs... it's not what the majority of SL want to do... it's a means to an end... the dogs need a qualification and that's it!
 
I would expect us to gain any title legitimately or not at all; a hooky title is as worthless as any hooky win imo.

@Jeff

Since you are currently present and seem to be very knowledgable about GSDs, perhaps I should direct my question from above towards you.  If you happened to miss it here is my post in it's entirety:

For the sake of discussion, not argument, what do you think about the difference of drives/energy that might be considered optimal between a GSD that is employed as a Patrol K9 and one that is employed as a Seeing Eye Dog. I do not have personal experience in either endeavor, so I don't presume to know what those differences might be. I do know that the Fidelco organization which uses GSD's exclusively in their program of breeding, raising, and training GSD's as Guide Dogs describe their dogs as "A Breed Within A Breed" as a catch phrase and that their breeding program is based on German Workinglines. I realize that this question is not really pertinent to the Showlines-Workinglines controversy, but I do think it is relevant to how breeders goals might differ depending on the intended use of their dogs.

Thanks in advance if you can contribute to my understanding in this matter.

SteveO

PS

If anybody else besides Gustav can contribute to this question please feel free to do so. Please consider it an "Open Question" to the members of this forum. Thanks again in advance to anyone who might contribute some input into this question.

I agree with missbeeb. I have a showline female( the hated Am. lines). And I am surprised when people say they have showline dogs or GSD that is doesnt have ball drive or drive all together. It is always around 100 degrees here in Texas. And daily I have to take her out and throw her tennis ball for 20-45 min. Since she is just under a 1 yr. old I try not to do any long run or walking. I accepted when I bought her she was high energy. That is what a GSD should have. I dont want a GSD with low energy that is not what the breed is about. While the other pups in the litter were all good energy none like mine. My dog has a brother from same sire and dam two year's early. One of the males was doing Mondio Ring until his owner pulled him out of it. I believe my dogs limitations are with me. Not with her. And I agree that the breed should not be "bred down" owners have to accept they are purchasing for the most part high energy dogs.

It's important to remember that it's not all about drive for a ball.  That's not what defines drive to work.  Many of the old border patrol lines have little ball drive at all, which makes them less appealing in sport, especially in light of contemporary training methods, but has little to do with their real working ability.  I have a male that loves biting, always had -right out of the box.  First time I ever introduced him to a helper was at 23 months old.  Now suddenly, at 24&half months, he's retrieving for the first time ever, but using the same level of "drive" he's had in everything else he does.  I had him going over an 8 ft. A-frame and other obedience excercises with no toy or food at all, and now he suddenly likes toys.

 Quote:  "Do you really think those trials count ? Where are they ? I don't see any of these dogs at trials. Buying a title is not the same as rocking a title."
You asked for it, and I gave it to you.  Or are you telling me that the many SL dogs with SchH and other titles are getting them from a non-sanctioned entity?  If you want to make the tests more like they were in the past you can apply to work with the USA, but I doubt you'll convince anyone with your people skills.  BTW, I do agree that SchH has dropped the bar, but it is almost impossible to find a KNPV program anywhere.

Like I said, one dog. You can bust out one dog. I have never heard of it, but that doesn't mean much. Stupid show lines.
There are more.  Look up the list of Universal Sieger winners and representatives to those competitions.  BTW, you show your spots with that kind of comment.  They are what they are.  If you don't like them, that is just you.

Quote:  I never mentioned a breed warden. We are American not German. It wouldn't work. Look at that idiot Graf. She is/was the breed warden. Hilarious. You basically are condoning breeding bad dogs so that everyone can have a GSD. So you basically are saying it is ok to be a whore. Sell to who ever, but I have my head up my ass ?? Trust me, you are the one with your name written upside down carefully on your belt. I have no problem with people breeding dogs at all. However, when you start with dogs that are not even German Shepherds anymore, what do you think is going to happen ?
No;  You mentioned judges, clubs and the breed and a whole lot of other nonsense.  Ideally, every club should have a breed warden.  That an individual uses the position for anything other than the purpose it was created for is something that should be addressed by the club.  I don't advocate or condone breeding bad dogs, although coming from you, the term "bad" may be specious to your opinion of what is "good".  I recognize the fact that not all dogs being bred fit neatly into either SL of WL expectations and that it happens because people buy these dogs because they either don't want either type, or because they won't plunk down some of the asking prices seen in the classified section.  As to the "whore" comment, it is a fact that happens daily with many breeders of WL's and SL's. 

Quote:   No, I cannot. I am 46, and not 13 getting my chain yanked by someone older. I know better. They are all shit. There are maybe one exception to this rule, but if the dog actually had drive we could use, the show people would not breed to them. It is very very hard to have 7 or 8 high drive dogs. However, it is easy to own 7 or 8 door knobs, So, they are all shit.
You are 46????  Never would have guessed that.  I'll agree with you that it is hard to own 7 or 8 high drive dogs...  It may even be hard to find time to practice them all daily and still have a life...    However, if you've read the rest of my posts, I'm not a SL person; nor a WL's person although I do like a lot of WL dogs.  The current SL's are the product of 3 to 4 decades of breeding for a few salient traits.  IMPO, that was a bad bargain as far too many are not able to do strenuous work and some seem as if they may not even be sound.  The WL's are not quite as far down that road, but at the rate things are going, in a couple of decades, they may catch up with the SL's in diverging from what the GSD was in the 1960's and '70's, when all dogs competed in both show and field.




Gustav:

My point is that breeders have already "changed the Breeding" to

GSD should be bred such a way that if taken on any path in the training then any such individual should do well. Breeding for any specific narrow purpose is not in the interest of the breed and it is not necessary .  I'd also say that there are differences between litters and within the litters and then such different pups should go to different type of trainings or situations. But that should not be the PURPOSE of such breeding. Thus" breed with in the breed"  is only good as long as they do not reintroduce their dogs as registered GSD to the public genetic pool. That would equal diminishing of the quality of  the breed.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com