Belfield DVM cures HD - Page 3

I think the only misinformation is that Vit C is Panacea. My point on the vaccines, I say so is only valid when you are living with your parents. Someone esteemed as stated should not muddle with the method. I understand and agree with you but throwing out the baby with the bath water in this case is unwarranted in my opinion. I was really hoping for a thumbs up on the spinach..... ho hum :)

Not your thred; Almance titled it a 'cure'. Bellfield claimed
it as a 'cure'. Would seem to me Willis was justified in
calling it a 'panacea' if it WAS supposed to be a cure,
especially given that he KNEW some breeders were using
it as an excuse not to Xray - which was happening at the
time.

BTW intro of fairy stories (Popeye) AND use of gratuitous
insults ("pompous dickhead") says nothing for your own
abilities to debate without "muddling the method".

Pompous dickhead - I like the ring to it.

The poster has the right to believe in unicorns, I think every post has been clear its not be proven to be a cure for HD. I think other posters/readers believe its a beneficial substance to joint systems. His pointing to some breeders belief systems who probably could care less what the facts are is not a real honed in thesis. Besides, because I say so, did he ever offer any intelligent reason why Vit C could be of no use in strengthening the joint systems? Did he bother to do any studies on his own or fund one? A very small sampling 8 litters 5 years but quite a bit more intensive an argument then stating look those guys over there are calling it.........., That does not hold up in any debate, Again.... Dr Esteemed should know better. Not gratuitous... That was a fair shot.

I did find an old article and this quote from Belfield seems pretty damn reasonable, he may have in his mind found a great treatment/cure but still wanted studies done.

"I'm just a little one-man practitioner who looked for better ways when conventional means weren't working. Proof is up to the universities. I really want to help these animals, not wait around for further proof while the dogs suffer."

Maybe just me Hund but does not seem too snake oily since he was pushing a cheap substance that is plentiful and could be purchased for pennies on your ride home from his office. I dont believe we should discount his belief or those of others who have seen positive results from the use because some dingle ball breeders from the 80's claimed it to be the new penicillin.

Vitamin C is essential to absorption of minerals and depositing them into developing tissue of bones and organs> It is necessary for hydroxylation of proline for synthesis of collagen. Fish in farms develops 20% of bone abnormalities if the food does not contain vitamin C. Thus lack of vitamin C has effect on bone and joint structure. However over supplementation leads to hypercalcemia especially if the dog nutrition is rich in calcium. The fact is that dogs - unlike humans and hamsters ... - produce their own vitamin C thus sound dog does not need to have food rich in vitamin C. However even healthy dogs stressed by sickness, transport, poor nutrition, injury, exposure to toxins or training or overwork, may develop vitamin "C" deficiency- scurvy. Enzyme L- gulconolactone oxidase (GULO), enables the organism to generates vitamin C from ( mainly) glucose. Normally dog produces 40 micrograms of "C" per 1 kg of the body weight. This is sufficient for relaxed or otherwise not stressful life of a dog. Thus healthy dog normally producing vitamin C and not under the stress does not need vitamin "C". As a matter of fact due to such production of C healthy unstressed pups with nutrition void of C had no abnormalities in bone structure ( National research Council 1972 and 1985). Dr Belfield in 1970s ( Thus not a new thing) started to sell ordinary vitamin "C" claiming treatment of many ailments including distemper and HD and other orthopedic abnormalities. Dr Belfield claims study ( now debunked? later on that ) where bitch which produced HD in most of her pups in several litters was fed 2g-3g of sodium ascorbate daily ( synthetic C) and then her pups were given same type of vitamin C 1g-2g until 2 years of age. Belfield claims no HD, even though he can not produce x-rays supporting such fact nor follow ups studies by Dr Belfield nor others. The is now this theory making rounds through world of dog breeders until today as we can see here that vitamin C can cure HD. Thus IMHO even so Dr. Benfield may be right, it is not proven scientific fact but only conclusions achieved by theorizing. He also claims that people w scurvy ( vitamin C deficiency) have several same symptoms as dysplastic dogs thus he then conduces that HD is caused by nutritional deficiency and not genetics and stetted to sell vitamin C supplement for dogs. The dogs ( there is known cause of scurvy in sled dogs) can develop scurvy if overworked in adverse conditions. However Cornell university conduced study which did not substantiate correlation between scurvy and HD in dogs because according to their tests the level of megadose of C given to pups were quickly burned up and thus levels were normal but no beneficial results in curbing HD were found. In my mind the way the study was conducted it did not eliminate possibility that low vitamin C causes bad hips. It only indicated that supplementation with vitamin C did not help. ON top of it IMO I would theorize that the loss of activity of the gene for L-gulonolactone oxidase enzyme to synthesize vitamin "C" may lead to vitamin C deficiency in animals who produce their own. Primates are absolutely dependent on exogenously supplied dietary vitamin C due to inactivation of the Gulo gene by mutation over 40 million years ago.But healthy dogs can still produce their own. Thus humans depend on exogenous delivery of vitamin C . However primates ( us) use natural vitamin C - ascorbic acid. Where dogs are not and if they lose their own production of vitamin C then it seems that they are not able to utilize exogenous delivery of vitamin C and benefit from it. ( according Cornell university study) . However there is a glitch. I can nowhere find out what type of vitamin C were used in this Cornell study. There are several types of ascorbic acid. They both - synthetic and natural resemble spiral one spins clockwise and the other spins counter clockwise. The synthetic ascorbic acid is not bioavailable to organism and natural is. There are studies which deny that, however the fact is that the synthetic ascorbic acid is immediately made bio available if mixed with natural opposing way spinning ascorbic acid. That is why we are buying synthetic vitamin C mixed with rose hips. However if then cornell study used synthetic C in dogs who could not produce their own then such vitamin would not have any effect indeed. I am just theorizing and do not have full fact to say that it was indeed so.

 

OK now what do we do? Even if the "megadoses" vitamin C would be beneficial to the dogs to form normal hips, then we are just cheating nature and that could have dire consequences because we are just putting band aid on the the genetic problem. If the dog genetically can not produce vitamin "C" and if indeed that is the cause of HD and if we decide to remedy such problem with natural vitamin C and if we are successful then we are just hiding genetic problem and if we have such dog with good hips then we do not know if it was due to our supplementation ( if it even works) or due to sound genetics. DR.Belfields claim that GULO deficiency is nutritional problem and not genetic problem is in my opinion hard to maintain.

Thank you Hans. The Dr Willis quote I used was a (briefer !)
attempt to convey much of the same info. / view. I am sure
he said & wrote other things on the subject, I did not expect
to need to go seek additional paragraphs for Gigante's benefit.
Especially since I had mentioned ^^^ that Willis was a mainstay
of the British HD system - as he kept the records, he was always
aware who was X raying their stock, and who was not; and why.
So he was in position to know which breeders were happy to
rely on 'voodoo'.

There is a childhood condition in humans where the pelvis does
not develop properly, resulting in dysplasia of the femur - often
referred to as "clicky hips". It seems to me this would have been
a better source of enquiry for Bellfield than was Scurvy.

I do not claim to know whether Vitamin C in any of its guises has
anything to do with ANYTHING related; I do wonder why ALL dogs
do not have shallow hips if LACK of Vit C or failure to make their
own is actually a 'cause' - gosh darn, there's that genetic, heredity
thing again ...
but the bit about OVERSUPPLEMENTATION is also true. Just as
you say, and as Bennett quoted by Willis said, if its given to dogs
already being Calcium boosted, you get problems - and look how
often we have to discourage people from giving extra Calcium to
their growing dogs, on here.

@Gigante: Gigante:"I wish to categorically state that using only excellent hip dogs is no cure for HD, and further I believe that it will not prevent HD, it simply cannot be scientifically supported. But its is what we have....."

 the scientific support? elimination of bad hips is simply not possible. It can only be pushed back to the point that it will not demonstrate itself as much. 

That is due to the fact that ALL dogs and canines carry HD genes. Even wolf bred in captivity will after about 3 genrastions produce ofspring with lesser ( dysplastic) hips.   HD is polygenetic problem with irregular pattern which is genetically predisposed and environmentally induced. Thus poor nutrition or gentic problems like inability to produce enzyme  GULO may or will trigger genes into producing bad hips. That is why some poorly kept dogs will have higher incidence of HD then dogs which are well kept. That fact then misleads breeders to believe that HD is strictly environmental - which is wishfull thinking. HD is genetic but it may be made worse by unfavorable environmental factors.

 Personally I would not supplement dogs with synthetic vitamin C. The dogs are not created by nature to need "Human-grade pharmaceutical ingredients. " as stated on suplement description marketed by  Dr. Wendell Belfield.  I would feed natural sources  which contain  natural ( in contrast to synthetic) vitamin C.  Like grounded apples and even raw meat. But I  would not do it in order to prevent HD. I wuld do it because I want my dog to  get proper all around  nutrition. 

" HD is genetic but it may be made worse by unfavorable environmental factors. "

Hans thats is the point to the comment. "Elimination of bad hips is simply not possible. It can only be pushed back to the point that it will not demonstrate itself as much" No matter the preferred method(s) of reduction.

Breeding two dogs with A hips exclusively without the underlying issue resolved (what is the cause of these good hips) is still equally hiding/masking the problem. It still will eventually bite. I believe not much different then the mega dose scenario if it did work. No matter the route its all cheating nature, a band aid. Irregular pattern, genetic predisposition, environmental factor.... the only options are band aids.

That last paragraph right on point, Hans. I have found nutraceuticals to be the most effective way to keep them optimal. I try and avoid synthetic anything, and that point was not brought up yet.