Has anyone seen this before? - Page 3

I wouldn´t like it, Kali.
Raising hackles and / or showing the teeth while "playing " with the owner for me is a no - go.
Your dog seems to be in a real conflict during this " game ", not really knowing what`s going on, and how to behave.
I´d never tolerate this behavior, there are better games for you and your dog.

Well, Susie, my girl died of cancer 1 1/2 years ago, so no worries now; & I  would precipitate this game, which we both loved, & she was obviously (to me) estactically happy to play this game....& was incredibly careful to never even leave so much as a scratch on me. I know she was playing, but do other dogs hackle during play? Maybe because they're excited? I'm having a hard time with this because most dog people take raising hackles very seriously, yet in my limited experience, it seemed the dog was doing it deliberately, like it was part of the game. Is that possible? jackie harris

And I will add, none of my other dogs do that, they hackle when they feel threatened, etc. I never had a dog that hackled at a helper. I've never seen another dog do what my girl would do, but reading the ops post & Sitasmoms post made me think that maybe other dogs do hackle in somewhat the same way, by being excited by the game, rather than conflicted? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but to understand what I was seeing.
Thanks, jackie harris

Slamdunc, a helper whipped her (feet, sides and neck), hit her (flanks and neck) with the padded stick, he did everything possible to get her to run off the field to prove a point. She didn't slow down, instead she became more intense. Eventually the helper wanted me to put her up, I insisted on her getting a bite. After some debate and me promising to pay medical bills, the helper gave her a bite. She did as always, bit the sleeve with a deep and steady, (ears up, eyes happy, tail up and hackles up) we ran in a circle and she rammed the sleeve into the helper. She was ready to go again. He put the sleeve away and in a minute she was ready for him to pet her and he did. I just don't see how this is fear.
 

Yes, some dogs will raise their hackles just as an adrenaline response. As Jim/Slamdunc pointed out, this is more often the hackles over the dog's lower back and hips ("butt hackles"), not over the shoulders. Sometimes you will also see that a dog will have his tail bushed out like a startled cat--but no other hackles. In this case, it is often just a sign of high arousal/excitement/adrenaline, IMO.

Christine

Hackles up may be sign of fear or it may be sign of excitement or just a sheer aggression. You have to read all the other sign. Once I was talking about the dog to a client.  Dog have bitten some people. At that time, to my chagrin  some one let the dog in the yard.  It was a chow-golden mix and he went after me  in a relentless fashion. He went after me like chicken after June bug for  about 60 feet across the yard and in no time  he was in full blown airborne attack, I stepped sideways and he missed my face by inches, as soon as he hit the ground he reengage. It was very serious thus I kicked him in the chest very hard. To the dog it was nothing. Thus I  commenced to  backpedal into space between two buildings which was about 10 feet  wide. There were 8 ft 2x4 standing - leaning against the wall all the lengths of the about 80 feet long corridor. While backing away I was knocking standing 2x4s on the dog who crawl tenaciously and relentlessly throw the jumble of the boards completely ignoring that some of them were thrown on his head.  Eventually I  run out of 2x4 and the corridor ended with a brick wall.  Dog got airborne at my face again. I have grabbed the dog by it's jowls in mid air   while the owner opened the sliding glass door to the house on my left side. I have thrown the dog in and owner closed the door. As soon as the dog  hit the ground he turned and went after me and hit the glass door with his teeth with so much force that I though that he may brake the glass. 
 All that time the hackles were up like spikes all over the dog's spine and neck. That dog was not scared, I assure you. Thus the theory that the dog with hackles up is always scared is out as far as I am concerned. 

A dog that raises it's hackles (hair over the shoulders) is insecure, feeling insecure or nervous.  Just because a dog is insecure or has weak nerves does not mean that it may not become aggressive, also does not mean it won't bite.  Some dogs when they feel threatened / nervous will go forward with aggression.  Just because a dog tries to bite, or attacks some one does not mean it is a "strong, confident" dog.  It also doesn't mean the dog is not fearful.  It may very well use serious aggression to cover it's insecurities.  A dog with issues can certainly go into a rage and attack some one.  IME, I have never seen a strong, socialized, confident dog raise it's hackles (hair over the shoulder blades) towards people and react with aggression.  Except perhaps briefly (for an instant) when startled.  I have seen plenty of dogs over the years, raise their hackles and run (flight), charge, or become enraged and bite (fight).  I have never seen one dog showing this display or behavior around people that didn't have some underlying insecurities.  This is often a sign of a dog with conflict.  When the conflict is coupled with drive then you have the mixed signals.  When the dog has drive and an underlying insecurity and is "sharp" then you have the potential for an very aggressive reaction.  

We must not mistake an aggressive reaction to a person as a dog that is "not scared."  Some sharp, insecure dogs will absolutely explode into a rage, will absolutely attack and may be undeterred in it's attempt.  I would disagree with the example in Hans' post above.  This is a dog that had issues, was insecure and went into a rage because of it's poor temperament.   It may not be the classic "fear biter" but more of a sharp / shy dog.

I will add that I do test and evaluate Police Dogs for my Dept and assist other PD's in my area.  If a dog "hackles up" during our Patrol testing I pretty much rule that dog out almost immediately.  I just feel the nerve strength is not there and I can find better dogs.  I remember being at a vendor last year testing dogs for our PD and was also there with another larger PD.  They had narrowed there selection down to three dogs and were ready to take them. I had found a super nice Malinois for our guy.  I noticed one of the the GSD's they had selected having it's hackles up when it saw the decoy in the suit.  I mentioned that I wouldn't pick that GSD and didn't feel it was "hard" or strong enough for them, even though it bit and showed aggression.  They took the dog, put two months into training and working the dog in the K-9 school and wound up sending it back and replacing it.  

As far as the dog's hackles going up over the lower back, Christine is absolutely correct.

JMO FWIW

Sitasmom,

Slamdunc, a helper whipped her (feet, sides and neck), hit her (flanks and neck) with the padded stick, he did everything possible to get her to run off the field to prove a point. She didn't slow down, instead she became more intense. Eventually the helper wanted me to put her up, I insisted on her getting a bite. After some debate and me promising to pay medical bills, the helper gave her a bite. She did as always, bit the sleeve with a deep and steady, (ears up, eyes happy, tail up and hackles up) we ran in a circle and she rammed the sleeve into the helper. She was ready to go again. He put the sleeve away and in a minute she was ready for him to pet her and he did. I just don't see how this is fear.

I really don't understand what happened with your training session.  I certainly wouldn't let a helper whip my SchH dog's feet, sides and neck.  The whip hurts and will leave a lasting impression on a young dog.  I stopped training with a club because they tended to do this crap.  Some dogs can take it and some can't.  Good decoys never try to run dogs off the field, especially to prove a point.  There is no "ego" in decoying, it's all about making the dog better. Any dog can be made to run or quit with the right amount of pressure.

I don't know what to say, there must be more to this story then we are getting here, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  If this were my dog, especially a SL dog that I wanted to try to title to breed I would have left pretty darn quick.  When the helper recommended putting her up that was probably the right idea.  I would never insist on any one giving my dog a bite that "had something to prove."  I don't get what the debate was all about with the decoy.  I really doubt that your dog was going to do any serious damage to the decoy or he was going to incur any serious medical bills.  Again, any decoy that I have to debate or convince to work a sport dog by offering to pay medical bills is not some one that I want decoying for my dogs. 

It sounds to me like your dog has some drive and goes forward when in drive, the dog sounds confused.  Perhaps the sting of the whip created some conflict in your dog and the drive for the sleeve held the dog in.  Your dog sounds pretty sleeve sure and I doubt the decoy was in any real "danger."    Sounds like a high prey drive dog, that took some needless punishment for you and the decoy to prove something.  If the behavior continues I'd rethink your protection training.  I'd take a few steps back in training and work on settling the dog in.  If it were my dog, I'd want the dog to be sure and confident and the picture you are painting is not really that.  I would spend some time working through this issue if you intend on going any further with this dog.  Just my take on your post, FWIW.

 

piloerection is an involuntary response that in and by itself doesn't tell anything other than that a mammal's sympathetic nervous system (flight-fight response) has been (strongly) stimulated. the primary info that can be derived from hackling is that the dog is stressed or aroused; the secondary info stems from an (experienced) observer's ability to infer whether the dog's stress threshold, given the observed stressor, is acceptable. obviously, there is a (learned) behavioral/coping response to the stressor, such as retreat or bite, and the combo (low stressor, low threshold) is generally labeled insecure and, if coupled with fight/bite, rather undesirable.

Kalibeck,
FWIW: Beau has always hackled all the way across and down to his butt when he engages in play combat with Mojo.  I thought it meant he wanted to look bigger! It certainly never prevents him from wanting to engage in a take down.