False Pedigrees or WhaLA! Dominant Black... - Page 3

@ gck, Beyond the 1960s I'm not quite sure if you can purchase an AKC online research pedigree. but it is certainly worth a try. I would try to order it. Then, the system will tell you if it can be purchased online or must be mailed. If not there is always the AKC Library for those that live close and have the time. We have hundreds of Dominant Black GSDs now in this database. 

So are all solid black GSD not dominant? I would assume if you breed an all black to an all black you would get a solid black. 

troopscott: If we accept the legitimacy of dominant black in some lines, then black GSD's are predominately, recessive black. You would have black pups because being recessive, it needs two copies of the gene to express the black, all over. You would also have black pups because it is dominant, too,  but are only needing one copy to express the black. What becomes the unknown, is you would also have different expectations for the progeny, depending on if that black dog is bred to any other color or pattern, other than black, without knowing if it was a recessive black or dominant black responsible for the bred, black dog's color.

Hope that helps.

Beetree's post is so much fun.

Recessive black is on Agouti, and the Dominant black on K, so a dog should be able to be BOTH!
Agouti = Black = aa (Solid)
K  = Kk or KK

@ troopscott if a dominant Black is bred, you can get, whatever they carry "underneath" sable, /B/T, Bicolor, etc. In 50% of progeny, 
If both parents are Dominant black, then, You can get also get about 25% non black as long as both parents carry a non dominant k recessive. Unless, they carry no recessive, then all pups will be KK Dominant black no matter what.

2 aa blacks bred together should only produce solid blacks, unless the carry liver b or Blue d, or white e, then you can get about 25% solid liver/blue or white/Cream.

If you look on some labrador pedigrees, some people are already entering the genetic genotype on the DNA data area, Like 
" DM Clear Ee, Bb
That above is a Black Lab that carries for chocolate/Liver and Also for yellow. besides the A and K a dog also has to have a dominant E to be black, or else it is cream or white.

Maybe some of our great Genetics loving members will be around later to explain this better.

 

As to Jackie's question about *why* it's a "bad" thing--it's not so much bad, it's that the breed founders worked hard to remove colors they didn't want to be desired in the GSD. And the saddle pattern and wolf sable were the most desired--I suspect that the saddle/tanpoint was somewhat rare and thus more distinguished and distinctive.

If you have dominant black and recessive black in a gene pool, it becomes more haphazard as to what you will produce. The dominant black will also hide whether a dog has good genes for a black muzzle and face mask. So, if you have a dominant black dog who is, of course, solid black, you don't know whether that dog's tan point puppies will have postage stamp saddles or biscuity tan or fading masks. Now, you don't know this either with the recessive black gene--but the recessive black gene seems to have some effect on the saddle and masking being darker (thus, "blanket-back" dogs). The dominant black will either be present and cover up everything on the agouti locus, or it will be absent, allowing the agouti allele to rule the dog's phenotype (appearance).

So, it isn't a terrible thing--especially now that we have DNA testing. But I would hesitate to say it's a *good* thing, either.

Christine

Nice Post & Explanation BlackthornGSD
In Ibrahim's Video of the interview with Walter Martin he (W.Martin) was asked about placing solid black in his Wienerau bloodlines, and he said he tried it, but the black dog he used must have carried a very light creamy tan hidden under the solid black phenotype, as he said the pups were Black and White as in near white on the undersides. But, there were black VA dogs before Walter Martin and maybe there will be some after him and us as well, aa or K.
This Dog VA1 Marko vom Cellerland Carried recessive black. but I don't know when the last VA solid black dog was.

1969/70 VA7 Frei von der Gugge

   

1906/07 SGR Roland von Starkenburg

born in 1918 INT.CH. V Greif von der Peterstirn

Interesting. When I stopped by spitzenhund kennels earlier this year they had added a new female to their breeding program. She is solid black. Part of the reason I stopped in (was in the area on business) was to talk to them about changing litters of the pup I had a deposit on. Anyway they had just got this solid black female and she was drop dead gorgeous. Needless to say I had to move litters and so I went to this female. I had always been a tan with black saddle as my ideal GSD but I am now a solid black guy after seeing her and seeing her work. Parrish had called me today to let me know the breeding took place and confirmed she is pregnant. Due on or about September 10th. I was the first one with a deposit and I am taking a female out of the litter. Was assuming they would all be black. 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/breeding.result?father=500731&mother=645403

By that pedigree, yes ​troopscott I think they will all be recessive black.

So by recessive black then they will produce all blacks?

When bred to other recessive blacks, yes, all black progeny, with off colors when the parents carry them. Note the picture pedigree there is no direct line of blacks in the pedigree you posted like in the Dominant black pedigree at the begining of this thread.