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by Nans gsd on 28 July 2013 - 12:07
Hello; I am thinking Eldee and 123Lyn suggestions are probably what I would try also. B12 tablets. Probiotics. Pancreatic enzymes. I have not had good luck with Taste of the Wild; don't like Eukanuba or Royal Canin.
What else is available to you in your country? Give me a list, please.
Here would be my suggestions for now. Cooked rare, oatmeal, plain pumpkin l-2 tablespoons per feeding. 2 feedings per day minimum, maybe even 3 smaller meals if you can do that to start then go down to 2 meals per day; add some sort of canned meat (1cup) to his oatmeal 2 times per day along with his B12, probiotics and pancreatic enzymes. No other treats for now as they might be the culprit.
So here's what the menu would look like: 2 cups cooked oatmeal; 2 tablespoons plain pumpkin; l/2 can meat (which is equivalent to 8 ounces or approximately l cup (US measurements) 1 probiotic, B12 tablet/capsule, Pancreatic enzymes.
Give him this 2 times per day to start. He may not gain weight at first but you need to get his system back on track for now and DON'T overfeed him to try to get him to gain weight; just start out slowly. If all goes well for a week or so, then increase his oatmeal to 3 cups, keep pumpkin and canned meat the same about 1 cup meat 2 times per day with probiotic, B12 & Pancreatic enzymes.
This is only my suggestions to start to get his digestive track back to health. The canned meat needs to be what worked for him in the past. Let me know what kibbles are available to you. Good luck Nan
PS: He will hike his leg when he is ready. Not to worry about that. Nan
What else is available to you in your country? Give me a list, please.
Here would be my suggestions for now. Cooked rare, oatmeal, plain pumpkin l-2 tablespoons per feeding. 2 feedings per day minimum, maybe even 3 smaller meals if you can do that to start then go down to 2 meals per day; add some sort of canned meat (1cup) to his oatmeal 2 times per day along with his B12, probiotics and pancreatic enzymes. No other treats for now as they might be the culprit.
So here's what the menu would look like: 2 cups cooked oatmeal; 2 tablespoons plain pumpkin; l/2 can meat (which is equivalent to 8 ounces or approximately l cup (US measurements) 1 probiotic, B12 tablet/capsule, Pancreatic enzymes.
Give him this 2 times per day to start. He may not gain weight at first but you need to get his system back on track for now and DON'T overfeed him to try to get him to gain weight; just start out slowly. If all goes well for a week or so, then increase his oatmeal to 3 cups, keep pumpkin and canned meat the same about 1 cup meat 2 times per day with probiotic, B12 & Pancreatic enzymes.
This is only my suggestions to start to get his digestive track back to health. The canned meat needs to be what worked for him in the past. Let me know what kibbles are available to you. Good luck Nan
PS: He will hike his leg when he is ready. Not to worry about that. Nan
by Eldee on 28 July 2013 - 13:07
Nans, I am with you on most of what you said above, except for the oatmeal. A dog with malabsorption issues does not produce near enough amylase to digest the carbs in 2 cups of oatmeal even with the extra pancreatic enzymes added and the oatmeal will pass through the intestines mostly undigested and cause all kinds of bacterial issues. I believe it is important to get back to as much of an ancestral diet as possible coupled with the added enzymes as dogs bodies are meant only to digest fats, proteins and some carbs. Not grains or glutens. Those things pass through the gut undigested. This is just my opinion, I am not a vet I just have experience trying to find the correct food for my dog with EPI. I think I would rather cook some plain turkey, some sweet potato, some mashed peas and carrots and mix up with some enzymes and try that, before the oatmeal and pumpkin.JMO.
by Eldee on 28 July 2013 - 14:07
Here is a really great link for dog supplements and how much to give. In case anyone is interested. see below
http://www.dogaware.com/diet/supplements.html#vitamins
http://www.dogaware.com/diet/supplements.html#vitamins
by SitasMom on 28 July 2013 - 15:07
I've had great luck with this recipie.
3lbs chicken with bones
3 - 4 cups rice
1 - can unsweetened carrots
1 - can green beans
Cook chicken until bones are soft, let cool and de-bone
place half the bones with some juice the chicken was cooked in into blender and grind until its a smooth paste and place in with chicken
discard rest of the bones.
grind carrots and green beans with the juice from the can add to the chicken
add enough rice to make a good consistancy.
3lbs chicken with bones
3 - 4 cups rice
1 - can unsweetened carrots
1 - can green beans
Cook chicken until bones are soft, let cool and de-bone
place half the bones with some juice the chicken was cooked in into blender and grind until its a smooth paste and place in with chicken
discard rest of the bones.
grind carrots and green beans with the juice from the can add to the chicken
add enough rice to make a good consistancy.
by Nans gsd on 28 July 2013 - 17:07
Rice is not my first choice for grains, turns to sugar in the system. I was trying to give the dog some type of food that could possibly go thru the system slower, if oatmeal does not work then I would go to quinoa (a seed not a grain) cooked of course has excellent protein sources and seems to be easily utilized and digested. But with this guys problem(s) who knows. That needs to be determined before doing too much changing. I was trying to get to a diet that is easy and the dog could handle without having to cook for him everyday. Oatmeal could stay in refrigerator for several days before having to cook it fresh again. Could have some excellent sources of food value for him also, all the OP can do is to try a couple of feedings to see if it is going to work; I think they will know in a day or maybe 2 days feed. Otherwise if the dog cannot digest carb's I would go strictly to a meat diet obviously; canned as I don't believe they are able to feed raw at this time. Raw would be ideal to try on this boy though, and that way you could experiment a little with the type of meat(s) he can handle.
I would also go to Dr. Beckers tapes and video's on feeding problem dogs; also maybe try satin balls for a treat to add some calories to help to put on weight. Recipe was brought up not too long ago, you could make and freeze and pull out of freezer maybe one or 2 per day for snack mid day and maybe snack at bedtime as long as he can handle them digestion wise.
Whatever is done I would treat as similar to EPI, SIBO, etc; B12 & Probiotics & Digestive Enzymes. Definitely those three things everyday and probably with every meal. Not sure about his weight.. Does not sound right to me30 kg's?? that is about 66 lbs. Definitely light for a 1 year old. But finding the right food combination for him is definitely top priority in my book and once you find what works don't change anything. JMHO Have had a problem weight, eater, skinny male before only his problem was failing kidneys. Hope that is not this dogs case as it is a lifelong food battle and at the blink of an eye they can drop 10 lbs then you fight to get it back on. Awful. Nan
PS: Reason I mentioned pumpkin (plain only) is that it does help with diaharria (sorry sp) excellent nutrition and fiber. Usually they like it and will even eat it without anything else. Poor guy, has to be miserable for him. Hope we can help to get down to the problem. Nan
I would also go to Dr. Beckers tapes and video's on feeding problem dogs; also maybe try satin balls for a treat to add some calories to help to put on weight. Recipe was brought up not too long ago, you could make and freeze and pull out of freezer maybe one or 2 per day for snack mid day and maybe snack at bedtime as long as he can handle them digestion wise.
Whatever is done I would treat as similar to EPI, SIBO, etc; B12 & Probiotics & Digestive Enzymes. Definitely those three things everyday and probably with every meal. Not sure about his weight.. Does not sound right to me30 kg's?? that is about 66 lbs. Definitely light for a 1 year old. But finding the right food combination for him is definitely top priority in my book and once you find what works don't change anything. JMHO Have had a problem weight, eater, skinny male before only his problem was failing kidneys. Hope that is not this dogs case as it is a lifelong food battle and at the blink of an eye they can drop 10 lbs then you fight to get it back on. Awful. Nan
PS: Reason I mentioned pumpkin (plain only) is that it does help with diaharria (sorry sp) excellent nutrition and fiber. Usually they like it and will even eat it without anything else. Poor guy, has to be miserable for him. Hope we can help to get down to the problem. Nan
by SitasMom on 29 July 2013 - 01:07
the recipe I suggested is good for 4 or 5 days.
changing the rice to another grain is fine, but rice seems to be very easy on a dog and I've used this for several dogs who were having similar issues and all with good results.
once cooked, i put 4 cups in a quart ziploc freezer bag, freeze 2 to 3 days of it and thaw as needed.
changing the rice to another grain is fine, but rice seems to be very easy on a dog and I've used this for several dogs who were having similar issues and all with good results.
once cooked, i put 4 cups in a quart ziploc freezer bag, freeze 2 to 3 days of it and thaw as needed.
by Nans gsd on 29 July 2013 - 12:07
Yes Sitasmom I have used rice also but just to fill the dog up and help with stopping or slowing watery poop down; however, I do think there are better options. If it works for your dog, great. If not this dog obviously needs help. I think OP has already tried the rice and meat combo, (Not positive though) but it is at least easier for a dog to help the system learn to digest again and it does help with squirty poopy. Ugh, the worst. 
by Khaled Sohib on 29 July 2013 - 19:07
thanks all for the concern,
123lyn45,
the vet told me not to feed him anything else including chicken till he figures out what is the problem but i will speak with him again.
Eldee,
I spoke with the vet about the B12 capsules since you told me at the the beginning of the thread but he told me that the TLI test results shows high rates of B12 rates along with the low rates of pancreatic results ( sorry don't know what they are called) which is a strange thing as he told me thats why he didn't recommend the b12 shots but I will speak with him again next visit.
last time he gave me a shot of Canigest ( a complementary feedingstuff to help maintain a healthy digestive system, consists of Rapeseed oil, Kaolin, Fructo oilgasaccharides, mannan oilgasaccharides,) to give him 5ml 3 times daily for 3 days with the metronidazole and before he gave him Tylosin twice daily for 4 weeks. I will speak with the vet about the digestive enzymes and probiotic next time I visit him.
Nan,
the kibbles available here are Artemis, Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Ziwipeak ( but unfortunatelyI can't afford as his basic food ), taste of the wild, Pet Botanics, Proplan, Iams along with others but these are the best available so far.
123lyn45,
the vet told me not to feed him anything else including chicken till he figures out what is the problem but i will speak with him again.
Eldee,
I spoke with the vet about the B12 capsules since you told me at the the beginning of the thread but he told me that the TLI test results shows high rates of B12 rates along with the low rates of pancreatic results ( sorry don't know what they are called) which is a strange thing as he told me thats why he didn't recommend the b12 shots but I will speak with him again next visit.
last time he gave me a shot of Canigest ( a complementary feedingstuff to help maintain a healthy digestive system, consists of Rapeseed oil, Kaolin, Fructo oilgasaccharides, mannan oilgasaccharides,) to give him 5ml 3 times daily for 3 days with the metronidazole and before he gave him Tylosin twice daily for 4 weeks. I will speak with the vet about the digestive enzymes and probiotic next time I visit him.
Nan,
the kibbles available here are Artemis, Royal Canin, Eukanuba, Ziwipeak ( but unfortunatelyI can't afford as his basic food ), taste of the wild, Pet Botanics, Proplan, Iams along with others but these are the best available so far.
by Eldee on 29 July 2013 - 20:07
Taste of the Wild is a great grain free option. If you pup's pancreatic function is low, why did he not give you some enzymes or creon to help with digestion?. You pm'd me and ask for my comments, again I came back here and basically told you what I had told you the first time. I haven't changed my opinion. Only this time you confirmed that your vet said your dog had low pancreatic function. Maybe your vet does not know how to treat low pancreatic function. That means you need to feed him the Vet Prescription Royal Canin gastro intestinal high energy food with enzymes until you can get him stable and then you could go to the taste of the wild food with enzymes to help your dog digest the food,
Often, when a dog has low pancreatic function it is best that the B-12 levels remain high range not just normal range. I would ask him again for a B-12 shot. The dog cannot overdose on B-12, it is a water soluble vitamin and what they can't use they just pee out. That is my advice.
Nothing I have told you will damage or hurt your dog. A lot of people have low pancreatic function and take digestive enzymes and B-12. Don't forget to soak the kibble in warmish water first, as dry kibbles are really hard to digest, then add the enzymes, wait half an hour then feed. If you use the creon capsules, you can feed them with the soaked kibble, you don't have to incubate them first. All of these ideas are not rocket science. When anyone, dog or human, have low pancreatic function it simply means human or dog, is not producing enough digestive enzymes from the pancreas to digest its food. Simply put it means it is not getting enough nourishment from the food and it is going right through him undigested, thus the diarrhea. Once you predigest the food with the enzymes for him in the bowl, he can eat it and get the nourishment from it as it is already predigested from the digestive enzymes you have provided in the food,. Please keep us posted as to how your dog is doing on the enzymes and b-12.
That particular vet prescription Royal canin gastro intestinal food is designed for dogs with low pancreatic function. It has been researched down to a fine science using hydrolyzation ( meaning broken down into highly digestible indiscernible proteins and carbs so it is easily digestible for dogs with intestinal difficulties. Quite simply, you have to find the money so you can feed this to your dog. Please don't try to reinvent the wheel, this is the food you need to start your dog on.
The feeding is best done in 4 or 5 small meals per day, i was feeding Maya 8 cups of food 6 times per day at the beginning now she is down to 5 cups per day in about 3 or 4 meals. I give her a B-12 shot myself once per month, plus she gets the B-12 capsules from wonderlabs with intrinsic factor every night. Her diarrhea cleared up within days of this regime.
The reason you need to feed in small amounts many times per day as they are starving right now and bloat can happen very easily when they are this thin and you feed them large amounts.
Good luck and please check with your vet. Here is a great web site you can show your vet about the B-12 regime from Texas A&M university.
http://www.epi4dogs.com/b12.htm
Depending how low the pancreatic function is, you may in time, be able to get away with just feeding the soaked Royal Canin gastro intestinal vet food soaked, but remember it will have to be soaked first.
In the meantime, while you are filly farting around wondering what to do, all kinds of other issues can start to affect your dog as a result of lack of nourishment ie brain and bone deterioration, irritable bowel disease, bacterial overgrowth in the intestines, anal fistulas, buildup of bile in the gall bladder can all start to appear and have devastating effects. Then it is no longer a simple low pancreatic function issue, but a myriad of other health issues that are far to expensive to even think about.
Sorry for the essay folks, but I had to drive a point home here.
Often, when a dog has low pancreatic function it is best that the B-12 levels remain high range not just normal range. I would ask him again for a B-12 shot. The dog cannot overdose on B-12, it is a water soluble vitamin and what they can't use they just pee out. That is my advice.
Nothing I have told you will damage or hurt your dog. A lot of people have low pancreatic function and take digestive enzymes and B-12. Don't forget to soak the kibble in warmish water first, as dry kibbles are really hard to digest, then add the enzymes, wait half an hour then feed. If you use the creon capsules, you can feed them with the soaked kibble, you don't have to incubate them first. All of these ideas are not rocket science. When anyone, dog or human, have low pancreatic function it simply means human or dog, is not producing enough digestive enzymes from the pancreas to digest its food. Simply put it means it is not getting enough nourishment from the food and it is going right through him undigested, thus the diarrhea. Once you predigest the food with the enzymes for him in the bowl, he can eat it and get the nourishment from it as it is already predigested from the digestive enzymes you have provided in the food,. Please keep us posted as to how your dog is doing on the enzymes and b-12.
That particular vet prescription Royal canin gastro intestinal food is designed for dogs with low pancreatic function. It has been researched down to a fine science using hydrolyzation ( meaning broken down into highly digestible indiscernible proteins and carbs so it is easily digestible for dogs with intestinal difficulties. Quite simply, you have to find the money so you can feed this to your dog. Please don't try to reinvent the wheel, this is the food you need to start your dog on.
The feeding is best done in 4 or 5 small meals per day, i was feeding Maya 8 cups of food 6 times per day at the beginning now she is down to 5 cups per day in about 3 or 4 meals. I give her a B-12 shot myself once per month, plus she gets the B-12 capsules from wonderlabs with intrinsic factor every night. Her diarrhea cleared up within days of this regime.
The reason you need to feed in small amounts many times per day as they are starving right now and bloat can happen very easily when they are this thin and you feed them large amounts.
Good luck and please check with your vet. Here is a great web site you can show your vet about the B-12 regime from Texas A&M university.
http://www.epi4dogs.com/b12.htm
Depending how low the pancreatic function is, you may in time, be able to get away with just feeding the soaked Royal Canin gastro intestinal vet food soaked, but remember it will have to be soaked first.
In the meantime, while you are filly farting around wondering what to do, all kinds of other issues can start to affect your dog as a result of lack of nourishment ie brain and bone deterioration, irritable bowel disease, bacterial overgrowth in the intestines, anal fistulas, buildup of bile in the gall bladder can all start to appear and have devastating effects. Then it is no longer a simple low pancreatic function issue, but a myriad of other health issues that are far to expensive to even think about.
Sorry for the essay folks, but I had to drive a point home here.
by Khaled Sohib on 30 July 2013 - 06:07
Hello Eldee,
I think the vet see the results for pancreatic function as "low normal" that's why he didn't gave him enzymes or B12 as he see the whole case as high bacteria in the stomach ( if that is the right expression ) not as low pancreatic function.
I will speak with him next time and try to convince him to try your suggestion as a whole set ( b12, enzymes & royal canin then taste of the wild )
Fortunately I can easily afford Royal Canin and Taste Of The Wild, earlier I was only talking about Ziwipeak that I can't afford as it more than double the price of any of the others.
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