Should this female have been mated - Page 3

Vkgsd we are not blanket judging anyone based on arbitrary numbers.  Anyone can disagree if they wish.  I personally would hope that if anyone had a breeding problem from yourself that they would come to you, I would.   Once again this discussion is intended to be about the principle in general terms because no names have been mentioned.

Mackenzie

Please explain what "principle in general terms" we are discussing?  You said she is "too old" and has had "too many litters" so you must have some number and age in mind?

VKGSDs - what I actually said in my opening post is " In my opinion she is too old and has already had many litters." and no mention of too many.   In my opinion a female of this animals age and having had this number of previous litters is too old.   If previous litters were of absolute top quality it would not guarantee the future quality and benefit to the breed as a whole.   Do we need to breed the females into the grave?  Are they just a dog? A money making machine with no benefit to the breed?


Mackenzie  
 

I think Mackenzie, the answer to your question, IMO, lies further up the thread in Christine's answer, which I totally agree with. 

aakay I am fully aware of the answers to my questions.   Christine paints a broad picture and as such I agree with much of what she has said.  However, this post began with one female and specific information.

Mackenzie

How is the female being "bred to death"?...is this final litter causing her to die after the whelp?  I don't understand.
If a healthy, senior female is being used to produce outstanding offspring...and she can do so, without complications to her health....why is it of concern to anyone other than her owner & breeder?
I have no idea who the breeder is or what the "circumstances are"....I'm answering as an "in general".

Breeding a senior female who produces excellent progeny will always be a benefit to the breed over a young female who produces "inferior progeny"......all financial gain aside.
Many breeders have females that are healthy into their 9th year, and ovulate like clock work.......choosing to breed them since they are mentally & physically healthy, shouldn't be an automatic "red flag".......I think (JMO) that there should be much more considered than just age.

I would agree with Christine on this......

again...JMO.

Well and on the flip side, My friend bred her healthy young bitch about 3 -3l/2 years old and SHE died 6 weeks after whelping.??  Go figure.  So, I have bred an older bitch in great health with health checkup from my vet that mind you told me NOT to breed her but gave her a well dog health check up and mama dog started hemmoraging at 65 days, had to go into emergency for a couple of days for IV's and I was left feeding orphan puppies.  So there you go.  Diseasters can happen to any bitch during gestation and whelping and as long as the bitch is "HEALTHY" and in good musculature form I think it is doable;  would I do it again, probably not.  Should a older healthy bitch be bred, totally the breeders call.  But in order to risk the bitch I would hope she would produce 'EXCEPTIONAL'' for the world to see and possibly produce better than herself to carry on her line.  ARE BITCHES IMPORTANT,  you had better believe it.  Great days everyone,  Nan

About "The breeder's call":

Hands up who thinks that if you approached the biggest, nastiest
puppy 'farmer' you had ever run across and asked "Do you believe
you should breed again with your nine & a half year old bitch, that
you already got nine litters out of ?",  they would say   "Hmm, no,
maybe you have a point;  perhaps she has done enough (although
I think she is really quite healthy)."

If anyone is doing it, they already believe they have good reason.

They may be right, they may be wrong, in their particular case;  but
they are sure as heck not going to change course just 'cos some
potential puppy buyer asks them to reconsider.

So we HAVE to address this issue as a principle, not an individual
case.  Do we want there to be a common perception that it would
be 'normal' to do matings at this age ?

I am not denying the practical correctness of what Christine said;
but in the wider, general sense, do we not need to consider ALL
the angles ?  Not just when observers, but if we consider this sort
of breeding under our own names ?

Well Xeph, this female has had more than a couple of dozen progeny to her credit.  I think it is more like six dozen plus.   As it happens this female is a very good female with a very good production level behind her, with of course a little help from the males.  The question is, regardless of how good the level of production has been, is that a good enough reason to breed her to death?

Basically, no matter the bitch, you have to hope that whoever owns her is keeping her welfare in mind. Multiple litters do not necessarily take the life out of a female. Every litter does risk a female's life, though--pregnancy and whelping can be lethal. You have to hope that every owner thinks of this before doing a breeding. But every dog, everywhere in the world, is at the mercy of the humans in his/her life. Animals survive and suffer all too often based on human whim and human business decisions. Go read Black Beauty if you've forgotten that lesson.

You say you're just discussing the principle... but, really, you're not. People have replied based on the principle, and your replies have been, "but she's had 60 puppies and for more than one breeder" -- that is not a "general situation." You're judging *this* situation--this number of puppies on the ground, this particular aged female, the fact that she's been passed from breeder to breeder. Honestly, I agree--it does not sound like this female has been fortunate and ended up with with a life as a housepet with a single loving family. But, really, you don't know that. Perhaps she sleeps on some kid's bed every night when she's not with her pups. Maybe she has a great life in between litters and maybe she absolutely LOVES taking care of puppies and finds being pregnant a breeze and maybe she just loves the nursing oxytocin high. Maybe being her mom is her greatest pleasure in life. You don't know.

I have had females come through my hands who were on their 6th owner at 5 years of age. One of them was utterly unsuited to being a housedog -- destructive of any confinement, frantic in a crate, would chew through a door if shut in a room (or house), dog aggressive, cat aggressive. The best I could do was to give her a retirement in a large, safe kennel (20 x 20) and two good walks a day. Another female was a softer girl--she was desperate for a family, desperate for a strong bond to a single person. But because of her looks and her pedigree, she was sold to people who wanted to produce strong working dogs and she kept falling short for them, so they'd sell her on. I didn't own her, but if I could have, I would have made sure she got to live as a family dog the rest of her life.

And, again, multiple litters do not mean a female's life is shortened. I knew a breeding bitch who lived to be 16--she had probably 5-6 litters in her lifetime. "Bred to death" is a description that may apply in a puppy mill scenario--but obviously hasn't applied in this particular instance--or she wouldn't be 9 years old and still having heat cycles.

Christine

Very well stated Christine....