I REALLY hate to post here but curiosity has the best of me and my need to share my experiences and ask a few questions overcome me. I’ve said over and over I would ignore things and not post here so now that I am breaking my promise to myself, please excuse the length and detail of post, but I hope someone, whether it be someone involved in this mess, or someone who is about to buy a dog without the dog’s papers in their hand, learns something from all this experience.
I have been “taken” on dogs papers before.....even came on here a few years ago VENTING about the LAST time I was sold a dog I never got papers on.....of course, while I was mad and venting here at night, I was spending my days finding out more info from people who the same person who screwed over, the police (the last time I was played for a fool on papers, the seller or the person I gave money to did not even OWN the dog so obviously I never got papers), and my attorney. I want to trust in people and that when they say they will mail papers, papers are at AKC and will mail them when they come, etc I will actually get them. However, I have lost enough money on dogs I never saw papers on that I don’t play anymore. My money stays with me until the moment papers are in my hand and inspected. I’d offer that as advice for anyone....just can’t trust people anymore. Also, advice from my perspective, if you do legitimately get screwed and want vindication, go DIRECTLY to your lawyer, if you don’t have one, get a consult with a lawyer (under $100 here) and find out what your rights are as well as what you can LEGALLY say online (IF you feel the need to vent) before you say more than you should. My other piece of advice, I think is a little obvious to anyone who’s ever heard “I’ll mail you the papers” and then never got papers, do NOT BREED a dog YOU DON’T OWN ON AKC PAPERS.
Like it or not, folks, AKC papers make dogs more marketable and I have seen AKC papers keep a dog from going to a shelter. That said, some of the ones I have seen that were saved only based on AKC papers, have had everything from horrible temperaments, to severe dysplasia, and all kinds of health problems, oversized, undersized, pedigrees that NO ONE should EVER CONSIDER breeding in my opinion, pedigrees with American/German Show/German Working and etc. MIXED ALL in one dog’s pedigree and you can imagine the mess the dogs were BUT all of the AKC dogs did manage to find loving homes who accepted them for what they were. Maybe it’s just the area I live, but people tend to respect an AKC dog more than an unregistered dog....I am speaking strictly from experience in the area I grew up and did some rescue in. So I am a firm believer in only AKC GSDs being bred (in the US)....I do not particularly like the AKC, personally, but until something better comes along, it’s the best we have. That said, my concern is with these puppies, their placement, and such....thus my questions.
I do NOT know the OP, or the “breeder” in this mess, so please see my questions as what they are. You posted on a public forum, it left numerous questions for me that I will try to sum up as quickly as possible, and also makes me very curious about your goals as a “breeder.” I do not mean to sound judgmental and actually am not being judgmental, but in order to prevent that, I NEED to ask some things so I understand this all correctly.
Was this a “accidental breeding”??? Is it that simple??? I don’t actually understand “accidental breedings” as I’ve never had a problem with my males letting me know a girl was coming into season and had ample time to make sure they were not out together until it was “safe” again, but I hear the term accidental breeding A LOT and know it could happen if you kenneled a male and female together at all times. I could understand a lot more if your male without a hip rating of working lines somehow managed to get to this show line female that you have no papers on?
I have a feeling this was not an accident though, so in case it wasn’t I will proceed. I notice the male is working and the female is show....have you done a lot of research on these crosses or just experimenting?
What was your goal with the litter? Pet homes, working homes, show homes (can you even show a half working dog??? HARDCORE working line girl here so I don’t know), etc?
Why in the world did you breed the female without having her papers in hand???
What do you intend to do with the pups to ensure their safe future??? They will have no papers to help track them if something goes wrong. Have you thought of microchipping in your name to ensure if they get in trouble, you can come to the rescue? I saw one of your ads for $1250 for a pup and think you need to be realistic and worried about getting these pups in good homes who will value them and NOT breed them. Even though your ad did NOT DIRECTLY say AKC REGISTERED, who in their right mind is even interested in a half show/half working pup, with untitled sire who has no hip rating, NO AKC papers (meaning assuming a pup is good enough and goes to a working home, it will have to register as a “mixed breed” to trial for IPO—I have NO CLUE if one can be shown without papers as that is not my venue), and everything for $1250??? No offense, but I can easily locate a pup with titled sire and dam, hip and elbow rated parents, imported parents, pure working bloodlines, all the documentation you could ask for, a guaranty that is actually valid, lifetime breeder support, AND AKC papers for $1500-2000 almost anytime....so maybe I am lucky and spoiled. I feel like this might be more related to money than vindication....and hopefully I am wrong.
Why is the male not hip scored? Has he been x-rayed and his hips looked bad so you decided not to submit to OFA or SV or what’s the deal?
Are you a knowledgeable, experienced breeder or just getting started???
Again, please don’t take my poor wording and pure curiosity wrong. I don’t know you, I don’t know who you say has the papers, and I know NOTHING about any modern show lines, for that matter I have seen your ads in multiple places but do NOT know anything about you, your breed program, or goals as a “breeder” so trust I am on no one’s side except the puppies. Pursue legal action if you think that might get you the papers on the dam of this litter. If not, or if you can’t get the papers, PLEASE spay this female and find her a good, loving home (or keep her if you desire). From this posting I can gather that this is at least her third litter (possibly without papers?) How old is the female? Anyway, not my concern, but it will be if this female comes up in a rescue situation and I find out or any of the unregistered puppies end up in shelters and I find out. One last comment, from my experience, and MANY conversations with my attorney who is also a friend, it is probably unwise to even attempt to sell the puppies on multiple public websites with the implication that they are registered dogs when in fact you have no papers on the mother and then come on this public form and complain that you do not have the mother’s papers...if you sell one of those pups without papers, implying or stating that you will give the buyers AKC papers, you have evidence against you in your own words, from your own IP address, on public websites....I have no clue about your state or your laws, but that just doesn’t seem like the best choice for you, but it is for any potential buyers of these puppies that find this IF you are not disclosing the fact the puppies have no papers and most likely never will. Just my two cents, my opinions, and could not contain myself from getting this out there. I do know the heartache of getting a dog, training him to a SchH1 while waiting on papers, and then NEVER seeing papers...and never titling the dog because he was just too well bred and too great of a dog to be called a “mixed breed” (mixed breed dogs need love too but I am strictly a working German Shepherd person, not saying a GSD is better than a mixed breed, but I don’t call a pure lab a poodle either so my dog was not mixed breed) was one of the bigger heartbreaks of my life, and is one reason I am so passionate about people getting papers if they are promised papers....not to mention the expense involved in just that dog, not to mention others I have purchased and never seen papers on, I think I have finally learned though. Hopefully you will learn the hard, expensive lesson from this and NEVER get cheated on papers again. Best wishes to the pups though.....