the evolution of the german shepherd?? - Page 3

Excellent post, Hund! Yes, concentrating on creating extreme performance/sport dog traits is just as bad in my mind as concentrating on extreme showline traits. There should be no extremes ........just balance, balance, balance.

Most agree with that statement.  But what their definition of balance is doesn't.

 Very often I see people perceive the 'golden middle' to represent 'average' and therefore undesireable. This is a total misconception of the term as it is intended. Rather it is intended as an expression of perfect balance as far as possible in all areas, with no exaggeration on the one side and no deficits on the other. At least thats my interpretation. Balance and harmony across the board.

I wince a little everytime I see ''Prey monster'' describing the problem in our breed. Prey is an important part of dogs and their ansestors wolves. Dogs learn in prey. Dogs survive by using that drive to obtain food. Never confuse an out of control dog and prey monster as one in the same. If a hunting wolf in his drive to obtain food goes about it in a hectic manner he will stay hungry. A controled hunt leads to food obtainment, not some wild eye attack on the prey animal. Darwin , natural selection, favors the animal who learns in drive to filfull his or her's needs. GSD owners must see through man's frailitys in our quest for better dogs. the inability for some trainers to truely control their dogs, does not equate to a bad GSD speciman.. I once had the pleasure to hear Ulf K speak on the training and raising of a HGH dog. He, my words from memory not a quote, said the drive must be border-line preditor for the dog to stay involved all day [ like 10 hours days times 7 days a week] in its job as sheep herder. The shepherd must control the GSD's drive to make prey which ends in death of the prey animal, in order to benefit from the dogs ability to save sheep. The ''golden middle'' is a catch phrase. Language can not begin to help someone to truely understand the complex world of GSDs without invovement in many fronts. Learn how to see through the titles and the lables.

Yes it IS very complex.  Even though I'm sure you are correct in the
'textbook' sense, GSDStudent,  one, quite major, problem is that there
are 'quite a lot'  [for which read 'far too many'] people out there who
would cheerfully use the 'prey monster' description of their dog ...
and I could bet my bottom dollar that most wouldn't dare let that
dog loose at a Herding Trainer's establishment. 

That may initially be a Training issue - but it can also become a
Breeding issue.


Terminology will always be a problem.  Start doing anything 'new'
with GSDs and it immediately acquires its own jargon.  And ppl who suffer
'kennel blindness' [or just misdirect on basic English, vomeisenhaus!]
can always confuse the issue(s), accidentally or deliberately.

very good Hundmutter. BTW i have been called a relative to a dog many times so we might have something in common. To use your example of not letting the ''prey monster'' off leash around sheep I think is very good starting point. I imagine the instructor for sheep herding would start this dog on a long line to establash control under distraction of sheep. The owner might be surprised how quickly his '' monster '' behaves with certain and absolute control by a master. If the owner stays with a program he might need a new lable for his dog. I maintain that the orginal stock for our great breed had to have strong and shapeable drives so that they could work a large flock,  trustworthy, for the shepherd. This was begun while the dog was young and shaped to the degree of control the shepherd required to do his life's work. Bad working dogs did not contribute to the gene pool, Darwinism at work. Dogs who performed well were bred. I would think dogs of high prey drive were bred to dogs with high prey drive for many generation by knowledgable breeders [ who happened to tend sheep] . Behavior was shaped or trained from a young age to curb the final expression of prey drive which would be killing the prey animal. Prey drive had to be demonstrated within a margin of control which the human could exploit for daily use. I doubt the shepherd thought much about a ''monster'' unless he just read "Frankenstein''.

If you and your dog are standing on a twelve foot high platform, and you throw a ball and the dog jumps to get it, I call it a prey monster. An excellent herding dog wouldn't do this, but I have seen many GS today that have more drive than brains. I can tell you forty years ago when they had dogs that herded sheep all summer or all day, you never saw GS that ran around every minute of the day with something in their mouth. I often see that today, and trust me these dogs did real herding....but they were not obsessive compulsive about the drive, they used it appropriately when necessary .....you can have too much prey bred into a dog....I've seen the difference.

I was not around 40 + years ago, I just look that way. I was not aware of the HGH dogs or their history until maybe 25 years ago . I  still do not know much other than basic knowledge of that particular job for the GSD. I do not know if all hi prey dogs would jump off of a 12 foot wall for a ball,I will not attempt a experiment to find out the answer as the dog is more important than refluting possibly a bad arguement.  I  would bet you some olden day dogs would have jumped. I am making conjecture about how the breed's orginal dogs. I have seen dogs of correct prey drive obsess over a ball until they saw a helper with a sleeve, and at that point when the helper arrived in  the dog's mind the ball did not exsist. I will hazard a guess that obsessive prey drive is what keeps the HGH dog involved with the sheep all day, everyday. Controled obsessive drive. Lassie did it because Timmy told her to herd. The HGH dogs were born to do it, and then conditioned and trained

I'm not guessing, guess that's the difference . I worked many many dogs during that period....but I am sure you have worked a lot of dogs in past twenty years to form your opinions. so it's cool!