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by workingdogz on 02 January 2013 - 14:01
Dirk,
This is a problem with being a breeder, to be a good breeder, you have to be open
to constructive input from others, and be honest with yourself about what you have.
And, it may not always be what you want to hear. So you asked, can the dog reach
back more than 4 generations? Sure, anything is possible, but I would not base a
breeding program on that theory. NONE of this means your dog cannot be worked,
trained and titled etc. Hell, he could even be OFA'd and breed surveyed etc. There
is no reason you cannot go through the whole SV style experience with him, but
just be brutally honest with yourself when it comes time to decide whether or not
to breed the dog. If there are several generations of 'missing' info etc, that's not
a solid place to start a breeding program. And trying to reach back 3+ generations
to any 'proven' dogs to further a breeding is not a good way to start building, it's akin
to building your house on a patch of marshy land. Stuff is going to sink!
When you breed? You start with the best you can, you breed to the best you can,
and you then hope and pray for the best. Even then shit can go wrong, but, your
chances of producing healthy sound animals with solid temperment increased
substantially! You are basically stacking the deck in your favor!
As for your dog? As Susie said, ALL dogs deserved to be trained and achieve the
most they can! Even a dog with a less than stellar pedigree will be able to teach
you a whole lot about what makes a dog tick! So learn with him as much as you can,
keep your eyes open and honestly take in all the information you can. Look at your
dog with critical eyes, point out his flaws, understand where he is strong, where he
lacks etc. Learn learn learn as much as you can with him! He is your dog, so he
deserves an owner who will stand up for him too, no dog is perfect, but if you
don't objectively believe in your dog, well, you should maybe think about finding
him a home where someone will think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread!
That said, just remember, it takes more than a couple slices of bread to make a
good sandwhich
No one started out in their breeding careers with knowing it all, I bet if you could
get some people to honestly answer you, they would tell you they wish they could
go back in time and NOT do a certain breeding. If they don't, then they are likely
liars
Keep on working your dog, just hold off on deciding to breed him ever again
until you get some time on the end of the leash under your belt. Titles will
not 'make' a dog, but the path you take to get to the point you go for those
titles will sure tell you a whole lot about the dog in front of you, at least it will
if you are honest with yourself.
This is a problem with being a breeder, to be a good breeder, you have to be open
to constructive input from others, and be honest with yourself about what you have.
And, it may not always be what you want to hear. So you asked, can the dog reach
back more than 4 generations? Sure, anything is possible, but I would not base a
breeding program on that theory. NONE of this means your dog cannot be worked,
trained and titled etc. Hell, he could even be OFA'd and breed surveyed etc. There
is no reason you cannot go through the whole SV style experience with him, but
just be brutally honest with yourself when it comes time to decide whether or not
to breed the dog. If there are several generations of 'missing' info etc, that's not
a solid place to start a breeding program. And trying to reach back 3+ generations
to any 'proven' dogs to further a breeding is not a good way to start building, it's akin
to building your house on a patch of marshy land. Stuff is going to sink!
When you breed? You start with the best you can, you breed to the best you can,
and you then hope and pray for the best. Even then shit can go wrong, but, your
chances of producing healthy sound animals with solid temperment increased
substantially! You are basically stacking the deck in your favor!
As for your dog? As Susie said, ALL dogs deserved to be trained and achieve the
most they can! Even a dog with a less than stellar pedigree will be able to teach
you a whole lot about what makes a dog tick! So learn with him as much as you can,
keep your eyes open and honestly take in all the information you can. Look at your
dog with critical eyes, point out his flaws, understand where he is strong, where he
lacks etc. Learn learn learn as much as you can with him! He is your dog, so he
deserves an owner who will stand up for him too, no dog is perfect, but if you
don't objectively believe in your dog, well, you should maybe think about finding
him a home where someone will think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread!
That said, just remember, it takes more than a couple slices of bread to make a
good sandwhich
No one started out in their breeding careers with knowing it all, I bet if you could
get some people to honestly answer you, they would tell you they wish they could
go back in time and NOT do a certain breeding. If they don't, then they are likely
liars
Keep on working your dog, just hold off on deciding to breed him ever again
until you get some time on the end of the leash under your belt. Titles will
not 'make' a dog, but the path you take to get to the point you go for those
titles will sure tell you a whole lot about the dog in front of you, at least it will
if you are honest with yourself.
by Keith Grossman on 02 January 2013 - 16:01
"So in conclusion after reading the replies this dog has nothing to offer other than a great pet."
That isn't necessarily true; he can teach you a lot about training as well!
That isn't necessarily true; he can teach you a lot about training as well!
by Hundmutter on 02 January 2013 - 17:01
Dirck - just like Workingdogz, Susie and Keith have said, to
learn FROM a dog and to get the best OUT of your dog, you
really need to see how far you and he can go with training
before you know whether he is 'breedworthy'.
You cannot afford to ignore any of the stuff people are talking about -
for example, my dog has a very similar pedigree to Sunsilver's bitch,
packed with Siegers and Double-Year Seigers, and every
dog on the paper having high grades and some qualifications and
hip passes.
But I still would not breed with him - he has an overshot bite
and an umbilical hernia, both of which could be passed on to
his offspring.
Breeding to benefit / improve the breed, and not for any other reason,
is the only way to go, in a world stuffed with unwanted dogs already.
learn FROM a dog and to get the best OUT of your dog, you
really need to see how far you and he can go with training
before you know whether he is 'breedworthy'.
You cannot afford to ignore any of the stuff people are talking about -
for example, my dog has a very similar pedigree to Sunsilver's bitch,
packed with Siegers and Double-Year Seigers, and every
dog on the paper having high grades and some qualifications and
hip passes.
But I still would not breed with him - he has an overshot bite
and an umbilical hernia, both of which could be passed on to
his offspring.
Breeding to benefit / improve the breed, and not for any other reason,
is the only way to go, in a world stuffed with unwanted dogs already.
by Blitzen on 02 January 2013 - 18:01
You guys are a lot more charitable than I am feeling today. If this ever goes any farther than producing more pets, I will apologize for being an asshat. I'd like to see those prelim OFA reports and the DM report too.
Why would the owners of a dog like Bronson have allowed him to be bred to a bitch with no titles and a pet pedigree? What am I missing?
Why would the owners of a dog like Bronson have allowed him to be bred to a bitch with no titles and a pet pedigree? What am I missing?
by Keith Grossman on 02 January 2013 - 18:01
"Why would the owners of a dog like Bronson have allowed him to be bred to a bitch with no titles and a pet pedigree? What am I missing?"
The bitch Brawnson was bred to in that pedigree was a ScH III.
The bitch Brawnson was bred to in that pedigree was a ScH III.
by Blitzen on 02 January 2013 - 18:01
I guess that's what I was missing. Thanks. I read the post about the motherline not being titled, misunderstood which motherline.
by workingdogz on 02 January 2013 - 18:01
Blitzen
The cold reality is, dogs like Brawnson and even Hanrahans Bastin were bred to
whatever female came along that paid a stud fee. Many of the bitches bred to dogs
like Brawnson and Bastin were nice pets at best. Not all had good 'pedigrees' behind
them either.
The cold reality is, dogs like Brawnson and even Hanrahans Bastin were bred to
whatever female came along that paid a stud fee. Many of the bitches bred to dogs
like Brawnson and Bastin were nice pets at best. Not all had good 'pedigrees' behind
them either.
by Mystere on 02 January 2013 - 18:01
Very good posts! Dirk, you have receiveld excellent imput from Hexe, Blitzen Keith, and workingdogz (whoever the Hell she/he is, he/she has written some excellent posts on various threads). Please "listen" to them. The only thing I would add is that, while the pedigree appears to be a product of BYBs, that does not necessarily mean the dog is "only" a pet. (Aren't ALL of our dogs, "pets," as well as whatever else they may be?). In my experience, some of the best of the AKC/non-European bloodline gsds have been the product of BYBs, in terms of temperament and whatever working abilities they may have had. Why? IMO, because they were not being bred for "upper arm lenght," "angulation," "side movement," etc. Instead, they were bred to be good pets with decent temperament and nerves (enough to deal with a bunch of rambunctious kids), capability to protect their families, and longevity. I have seen a couple of them that actually did prove themselves on the schutzhund field and earn titles. Not the most spectacular dogs on the field, buy not "poopers," either. 
by Mystere on 02 January 2013 - 18:01
Sadly, workingdogz is right again. Too often excellent males are bred to whatever came with a stud fee. Some have even been bred to bitches of other breeds with a stud fee. (No, I am NOT referencing any of the well-known gsd studs. But, Google "Rotterman," if interested). Part of being an ethical and proper breeder includes discretion and discrimination as a stub owner.
by Paul Garrison on 02 January 2013 - 19:01
"No one in their right mind does this sort of breeding. There are enough dogs out there with really excellent pedigrees that are languishing on death row in shelters. Just take a hop over to the Rescue forum, and you'll see what we are talking about, and why this sort of breeding gets people upset."
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING. "No one in their right mind" Now you are implying he is insane? I personally would never buy a dog like what he bred. BUT I would never buy a dog like you bred either. We can say I believe there are better ways to breed dogs or I would never do that, BUT not in their right mind. Get off your high horse and be helpful not insulting.
Someone could have the opinion to "keep the best and shoot the rest" out of a litter and be their way of improving their breeding program. Another could say breed the best and neuter and spay the rest and another could say leave the breeding to someone else and all be right in their own minds, and the minds of others, but MUTS are the most healthy dogs around and least amount of physical and mental problems, so top that in your healthy dog breeding program.
Just because you believe something does not make it fact. He kindly asked for input not insulted.
23 years ago a man, a SchH trainer invited me to his club to train with them and said bring all of your dogs. I showed up with 8 dogs from the Kimbertal Kennels. Over the course of several months he showed there are good dogs that could think, that could bite, that could be safe. Then I got dogs from the Posthorn Kennels, Stahlhammer Kennels and even the Kirschental kennel, then I started training good dogs not better dogs but good dogs but he taught me not insulted me.
Paul
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING. "No one in their right mind" Now you are implying he is insane? I personally would never buy a dog like what he bred. BUT I would never buy a dog like you bred either. We can say I believe there are better ways to breed dogs or I would never do that, BUT not in their right mind. Get off your high horse and be helpful not insulting.
Someone could have the opinion to "keep the best and shoot the rest" out of a litter and be their way of improving their breeding program. Another could say breed the best and neuter and spay the rest and another could say leave the breeding to someone else and all be right in their own minds, and the minds of others, but MUTS are the most healthy dogs around and least amount of physical and mental problems, so top that in your healthy dog breeding program.
Just because you believe something does not make it fact. He kindly asked for input not insulted.
23 years ago a man, a SchH trainer invited me to his club to train with them and said bring all of your dogs. I showed up with 8 dogs from the Kimbertal Kennels. Over the course of several months he showed there are good dogs that could think, that could bite, that could be safe. Then I got dogs from the Posthorn Kennels, Stahlhammer Kennels and even the Kirschental kennel, then I started training good dogs not better dogs but good dogs but he taught me not insulted me.
Paul
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