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by Dog1 on 06 October 2010 - 21:10
Abby,
The topic is a very complex situation. Jantie is applying their usual logic where an apple is an apple and it's proven. The orange is an orange and it's proven, so the pear is a watermellon. Just look at the response to my post. Sure there are problems in the world today. Lots of problems. There are some serious problems in the US stemming from China. But are all the worlds problems caused by the sale of a dozen German dogs to China? I think not.
If you recall the thread where the SV was corrupt because the show dogs all evolved from one dog. The whole thing is corrupt because the breed developed from one dog. It's the same logic. The same can be said for the breed 100 years ago. The breed is corrupt because of Horand. Yes Horand was used by all the judges, the system is fixed. No logic to the logic.
If you want to discuss the show system you need to be informed of how it works and present the complete picture. Don't just spit out one corner of it and use it as an example of how the whole system works. Do I think there are not a few that work the system a little? I think there are. I also think the SV patrols themselves and not much goes unnoticed. Not only that if you're around what's going on you can avoid the BS and sometimes use situations to your advantage.
The topic is a very complex situation. Jantie is applying their usual logic where an apple is an apple and it's proven. The orange is an orange and it's proven, so the pear is a watermellon. Just look at the response to my post. Sure there are problems in the world today. Lots of problems. There are some serious problems in the US stemming from China. But are all the worlds problems caused by the sale of a dozen German dogs to China? I think not.
If you recall the thread where the SV was corrupt because the show dogs all evolved from one dog. The whole thing is corrupt because the breed developed from one dog. It's the same logic. The same can be said for the breed 100 years ago. The breed is corrupt because of Horand. Yes Horand was used by all the judges, the system is fixed. No logic to the logic.
If you want to discuss the show system you need to be informed of how it works and present the complete picture. Don't just spit out one corner of it and use it as an example of how the whole system works. Do I think there are not a few that work the system a little? I think there are. I also think the SV patrols themselves and not much goes unnoticed. Not only that if you're around what's going on you can avoid the BS and sometimes use situations to your advantage.
by Abby Normal on 06 October 2010 - 21:10
Dog1
Interesting view, an apple may be an apple and it's proven, but just you try and tell that to some people who will swear it is not so. Systems are only ever corrupt because of the people (so it was not because of Horand per se) and people are usually corrupt because their is monetary gain involved. It's always as simple as that. There may not be much that goes unnoticed, but not much is done to resolve it. But that was not the topic of the thread.
The thrust basically, was 'is it all about the money?'. Using the logic you refer to you could say 'if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, it probably is a duck'.
Interesting view, an apple may be an apple and it's proven, but just you try and tell that to some people who will swear it is not so. Systems are only ever corrupt because of the people (so it was not because of Horand per se) and people are usually corrupt because their is monetary gain involved. It's always as simple as that. There may not be much that goes unnoticed, but not much is done to resolve it. But that was not the topic of the thread.
The thrust basically, was 'is it all about the money?'. Using the logic you refer to you could say 'if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, it probably is a duck'.
by Dog1 on 07 October 2010 - 00:10
Abby,
The topic is about a few dogs that were sold to China. Look at the NASS website. There were some dogs sold to the US too. So what? I'll bet there were some sold to other countries too. Where's the scandal there? Look at the prices....Who's getting rich? One or two dogs make it big in a breeders lifetime and can be sold for top dollar. Hurray there's a chance for a bonus if you do well as a breeder once or twice in your lifetime.
If you look at the VA dogs that are sold. It's frowned upon to sell a VA dog before it has been given it's chance to influence the breed in Germany. The breeders I have spoken with that own VA dogs have repeatedly told me they were asked about the plans for the dogs as the judges wanted assurance the VA rating would not be used as a sales tool. Take a look at the VA dogs that have left. The majority leave once they fall out of favor and their breedings slow down or they go over 5 years old. What's wrong with letting a dog go influence the breed in another country after it's made it's contribution in Germany? Look at Kevin, Yasko, etc. that came to the US. All arrived when they were done in Germany yet young enough to impact the breed here.
I can point out a few examples of the SV policing itself. Wasn't there a recent case where a prominent judge was found guilty of charges brought on by SV members? Isn't there a rule where in order to go top 20 at the sieger show your dog has to be shown 3 times under different judges? Wasn't there an SV judge who's license was suspended and they recently got it back? Many examples exist.
The topic is about a few dogs that were sold to China. Look at the NASS website. There were some dogs sold to the US too. So what? I'll bet there were some sold to other countries too. Where's the scandal there? Look at the prices....Who's getting rich? One or two dogs make it big in a breeders lifetime and can be sold for top dollar. Hurray there's a chance for a bonus if you do well as a breeder once or twice in your lifetime.
If you look at the VA dogs that are sold. It's frowned upon to sell a VA dog before it has been given it's chance to influence the breed in Germany. The breeders I have spoken with that own VA dogs have repeatedly told me they were asked about the plans for the dogs as the judges wanted assurance the VA rating would not be used as a sales tool. Take a look at the VA dogs that have left. The majority leave once they fall out of favor and their breedings slow down or they go over 5 years old. What's wrong with letting a dog go influence the breed in another country after it's made it's contribution in Germany? Look at Kevin, Yasko, etc. that came to the US. All arrived when they were done in Germany yet young enough to impact the breed here.
I can point out a few examples of the SV policing itself. Wasn't there a recent case where a prominent judge was found guilty of charges brought on by SV members? Isn't there a rule where in order to go top 20 at the sieger show your dog has to be shown 3 times under different judges? Wasn't there an SV judge who's license was suspended and they recently got it back? Many examples exist.
by Videx on 07 October 2010 - 01:10
Ulli 75% facts/truth- do me a favour, never in yours or Jantie's wildest dreams.
Abby - you really do take the biscuit, feigning knowledge - you know so little it embarrasses you to reveal your identity.
I tire of this BS topic
Abby - you really do take the biscuit, feigning knowledge - you know so little it embarrasses you to reveal your identity.
I tire of this BS topic
by Rik on 07 October 2010 - 01:10
Apparently, this is not a recent development.
1932 Sieger Hassan vom Haus Schutting.
"Before being exported to China, Hussan was the Sieger in 1932"
Gordan Garret "History of the German Shepherd Dog"
jantie, I fail to see your position on the GSD. If you think all is wrong, then why do you bother with the breed. You have absolutely no positive comments or research concerning the GSD. Despite the many accomplishments of the breed in the world.
Just curious,
Rick Atchley
1932 Sieger Hassan vom Haus Schutting.
"Before being exported to China, Hussan was the Sieger in 1932"
Gordan Garret "History of the German Shepherd Dog"
jantie, I fail to see your position on the GSD. If you think all is wrong, then why do you bother with the breed. You have absolutely no positive comments or research concerning the GSD. Despite the many accomplishments of the breed in the world.
Just curious,
Rick Atchley
by Jeff Oehlsen on 07 October 2010 - 04:10
Oh My GOD !!! THere are Chinese people that like dogs ! ! ! ! RUN RUN RUN RUN !!!! OH MY GOD ! ! ! ! RUN ! ! ! !
by Oskar1 on 07 October 2010 - 09:10
It is most certainly not about a dog beeing sold to China or any other country for that matter. It is about how we managed to be at the point where we are, about health concerns, and last but not least, if one could call the revenues made in the GSD world, a "Hobby" income. More then often, it is said the promotion of said dogs are expensive, well all of us encounter these expenses. Neverless, one only needs to take the "Decknachrichten" and make a list of some dogs, how often they were used. If you then take a closer look on who owns them, then you can easily figure it out. That is what Jantie has done, and he voices his doubts, imo, this is his right.
Dont get me wrong, if someone can sell a dog with profit, thats fine with me, but if these numbers go to an extrem, I just have my doubts, that this is along the lines with the satues of the SV. This far, nobody ever explained to me where the line is between a "Hobby income" and a "professional revenue income". Is turning 10 000 a year considered Hobby , or is turning 300 000 still a hobby ?
That's where Jantie points to, claiming that the alledged "professional course" of breeding and selling dogs, leads to not having the well beeing of the GSD at heart, it rather apears that it is aimed at making revenue.
I leave it up to you, I for my part see some things in a different light, thanks to some numbers presented by Jantie. Not that I would ever let my guard down, and just believe everything unchecked, but it sure is interesting to dig a little deeper.
Ulli
Dont get me wrong, if someone can sell a dog with profit, thats fine with me, but if these numbers go to an extrem, I just have my doubts, that this is along the lines with the satues of the SV. This far, nobody ever explained to me where the line is between a "Hobby income" and a "professional revenue income". Is turning 10 000 a year considered Hobby , or is turning 300 000 still a hobby ?
That's where Jantie points to, claiming that the alledged "professional course" of breeding and selling dogs, leads to not having the well beeing of the GSD at heart, it rather apears that it is aimed at making revenue.
I leave it up to you, I for my part see some things in a different light, thanks to some numbers presented by Jantie. Not that I would ever let my guard down, and just believe everything unchecked, but it sure is interesting to dig a little deeper.
Ulli
by susie on 07 October 2010 - 11:10
Sorry I jump in this thred, normally I only shake my head, but this time...
All of us know, that there are some breeders - handlers - trainers - judges - who earn their money with dogs ( and some of them make A LOT of money ) - but, WHY NOT ??? ALL of them started with ONE german shepherd, they worked a lot, spent a lot of money and some of them had success... Almost EVERY german breeder started with training, raising, showing, titling dogs - a lot more than a lot of people can tell from themselves- they are in " the business " for decades, trained and paid for years, they didn´t start with a champion...
After all, it´s the SMALL breeder, who pays stud fee for the VA dogs instead of using a good stud out of his neighbourhood - and he uses the VA dog, because he too wants to make money ( better results on shows - puppies easier for sale - maybe a "winner" in the next breeding...)
The " small " showline people only buy dogs out of well known kennels and parents - makes the game easier, they want fast access...
HD and ED still is a BIG problem, but WHY THE HELL don´t we send the BAD results to SV ????? It´s our own fault - we don´t want to blame the parents - we don´t want to blame ourselves - maybe we want to sell the dog ????
After all it´s OUR OWN DECISION what kind of dog we buy, what kind of dog we sell, what kind of dog we breed, or how hard we train...
Kind regards from Germany
I forgot: The only thing I REALLY hate: A lot of these people don´t pay taxes... and that - in my personal opinion - is wrong...
All of us know, that there are some breeders - handlers - trainers - judges - who earn their money with dogs ( and some of them make A LOT of money ) - but, WHY NOT ??? ALL of them started with ONE german shepherd, they worked a lot, spent a lot of money and some of them had success... Almost EVERY german breeder started with training, raising, showing, titling dogs - a lot more than a lot of people can tell from themselves- they are in " the business " for decades, trained and paid for years, they didn´t start with a champion...
After all, it´s the SMALL breeder, who pays stud fee for the VA dogs instead of using a good stud out of his neighbourhood - and he uses the VA dog, because he too wants to make money ( better results on shows - puppies easier for sale - maybe a "winner" in the next breeding...)
The " small " showline people only buy dogs out of well known kennels and parents - makes the game easier, they want fast access...
HD and ED still is a BIG problem, but WHY THE HELL don´t we send the BAD results to SV ????? It´s our own fault - we don´t want to blame the parents - we don´t want to blame ourselves - maybe we want to sell the dog ????
After all it´s OUR OWN DECISION what kind of dog we buy, what kind of dog we sell, what kind of dog we breed, or how hard we train...
Kind regards from Germany
I forgot: The only thing I REALLY hate: A lot of these people don´t pay taxes... and that - in my personal opinion - is wrong...
by Videx on 07 October 2010 - 17:10
susie; an excellent and refreshing post, thank you.
Far too many posters cannot comprehend the complexities of the world at the top, in anything.
It is pointless even thinking they may grasp even a little.
without the Internet and sites like this, they would be permanently invisible.
Far too many posters cannot comprehend the complexities of the world at the top, in anything.
It is pointless even thinking they may grasp even a little.
without the Internet and sites like this, they would be permanently invisible.
by Ibrahim on 07 October 2010 - 20:10
Susie,
Truth smell is all over your honest post. I salute you.
Ibrahim
Truth smell is all over your honest post. I salute you.
Ibrahim
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