define suspicion? - Page 3

Judron, I think what you and I have described are very much inline with each other. 

I agree Uglyk9....except
.....once you take it to the physical level....suspicion is gone...now we're dealing with pain:-) In order to stop pain we either high tail it or mistrust is evident.....growling....avoidance...not a strong response. Again, time is the obstacle....if you can't wait the dog out..most everything else is window dressing....disclaimer..this is just my opinion..and as with most things, I could be wrong:-)

thanks for the informative responses glad to see some really intelligent responses other than "go out and work some (strangers???) dogs and figure it out on your own" lol

hard to tell with my dog seems only curious havent seen her view anything as a threat yet while walking/jogging her

she is pretty new i didnt notice it on my other dog i had growing up either.

Judron, I agree once you take it physical it is pain......but should cause more suspicion as a byproduct

In the case of a confident dog with very little suspicion, bringing pain into the equation will more than likely bring fight from the dog.  If we take a weak dog and remove the option to run, it must fight.   with this work I also think much trust work should be done as well.  The dog needs to trust that the helper will not unfairly cause him pain.  that dog should be shown the the helper can come up to him and handle him when the helper is not showing any sort of threat.  

In the initial work avoidance is not excepted and subtle and small efforts by the dog are rewarded by causing a reaction from the helper.  Through these series of small victories......stepping forward at the man, growling, small barks......the dog will build confidence in learning that he can control the helper by barking and showing aggression.  Same disclaimer....Just my opinion!   

Judron...I say we go work some dogs!     

<<In the initial work avoidance is not excepted and subtle and small efforts by the dog are rewarded by causing a reaction from the helper.  Through these series of small victories......stepping forward at the man, growling, small barks......the dog will build confidence in learning that he can control the helper by barking and showing aggression.>>

agree Uglyk9....this is how you'd initial bring a unsure, pup, beginning dog along...I'm ready and willing to work:-)

Excellent point, Ug, that can't be emphasized enough.  If the helper does not recognize or ignores and "breaks through"  the small engagements, the dog in this situation is defeated.

Scott B

ugly is this for personal protection training usually?


also why would someone subject such a weak dog to such terror ugly? why not use a strong dog?

yeh ugly, i heard that. i always paid close attention to someone that i knew without a doubt knowed more than me.

Destiny, In my opinion this is the foundation work for ALL protection work, be it Schutzhund, police, or personal protection.  One thing that I don't believe was mentioned is that this is almost exclusively done with out any equipment.  The dog is not shown or given a sleeve or given a bite until he understands "Why" he is biting and showing good intent to bite. Think of his barks as "Jabs" and the helper needs to be a good actor and show that the dogs jabs are having an affect, again building confidence in the dog.    Eventually stimulation is reduced by the helper to where the dog will fire up on a completely complacent helper when instructed to do so.   Obviously, control is very important here and the dog should turn off when instructed to do so as well.

As far as putting a weak dog through "terror ugly"....I think as stated before you have to remember that by physical stimulation I don't intend lacing into the dog with a whip or beating the hell out of him, many times a slight touch or light pinch will piss the dog off enough to react.  then his reaction is rewarded by driving the threat away.    As far as Personal Protection dogs and police dogs, obviously its up to the helper/owner to use his better judgment on whether the dog should be forced through any training program to look good only to shutdown later on.  But for schutzhund dogs this can be a great tool for someone that does in fact have a weaker dog.  Not all of us can just sell every bad dog we get and go buy another one.  Instead of training the weak dog through tons of prey to get him through the trial, This method will build his confidence and make him a much more solid, balanced dog.  Things can go weird in a trial...dogs get stepped on or jammed and the dog that has been through this program has already learned to fight through it instead of turning tail and running.