Herding lines? - Page 3

Owning one myself,
I must agree with Kirschental if you wanted to import.

Moons,
Do you actively herd with your dog?
I ask because I recently worked two 8 month old puppies on a flock of 30. The first puppy did okay.... about what one would expect. The second puppy was amazing!! Just started woking the border, really blew me away.

It made me understand a bit of what people mean when they talk about natural abilities.

--Mary

 

Why do you assume there are fences in the AKC or AHBA tending courses?  In tending, there are "boundaries", but not fences.  There are borderlines used in HGH too, right?  The only fence requirement I know of, is when you take from the pen in the beginning, and repen the livestock at the end.

Trained sheep?  You must mean "conditioned," and you're telling me Ulf has 300 sheep that have never seen a dog before?  The flightiness of the sheep can depend on the amount of conditioning to dogs, the breed of sheep, and even the type or breed of dog they've been exposed to or worked with.  You rotate a portion of your stock, send them to the sale barn, and add a few fresh ones to the bunch.  If you don't, luck be with you on a trial, with numerous providers of the livestock at an actual trial, you can't know what you'll be competing with.

You think 300 sheep is more difficult, how?  Probably the same three hundred sheep used for every trial entered dog that day, maybe even the following year, too.  You should at least try to give an explanation, or you're point by itself makes for a poor argument.  "Just because", doesn't mean crap.  Like I said above, in some respects,  each can be more difficult than the other.  It can also be a lot easier.   Depends on the dog, the livestock, weather conditions, and numerous other factors.  Please, tell us your experience.

" after accomplishing HGH on 350 head, what more could he prove?"

Believe me, a lot could be proved.

I have been taking herding lessons with my HGH dog, and learning quite a bit.  It's a lot of fun for me and the dog.  But not impressive compared to the HGH.  "sorry" - just because it's not. 

But, because I don't have access to HGH herding, I take lessons from a border collie trainer - working on border-collie style herding - and yes my dog is "getting it" - no my dog will not be competitive against BCs.  It's just not the style of herding that comes naturally to a GSD.  But, he's very trainable and he's "getting it".  And it's fun.

I would not consider a "PT" or herding instinct test, or any akc herding title a test for breedworthiness as you do.    HGH is considered equivalent to SChh1 as a breeding test.  So yes, it's a "better" test IMO.

 I would like to do some "C" course with him, but haven't found a trainer to work with, yet.  And my time is mainly spent on Schutzhund, not herding.   Because I breed, I test my dogs and make sure they pass the tests (titles) before breeding them.  The rest of the activities (herding, agility, SAR training, akc obedience and rally), are for fun and enjoyment and exercise of me and my dog's body and brain.

molly

Yes, I'm talking about C (tending) course.  I suppose BC's will always be king in herding, very few gsd's are near as good in comparison.  If you get the chance, take it.  It's hard to appreciate until you train for it, and realize all the different dynamics that are at work.  The most appearant difference, is obviously the size of the flock, but once you experience it, you realize how insignificant that difference really is.

BTW, I don't consider any trial, german or not,  an adequate test for breedworthiness.  I probably wouldn't even consider as much as 1% of german-born and trialed dogs as "breedworthy" in the first place.

Molly said, The minimum # for HGH is 250-300 head.

No. The minimum for a HGH is 200 head. Please see the Hüteordnung.

Molly said,  ". . . because after accomplishing HGH on 350 head . . ."

Really?  Ulf uses 350 head in his club's HGH trials? Um . . . really?

Molly said, "I think 300 head of sheep in an open field with no fences is more difficult (and the HGH title far more impressive to me) than 20-60 head in an enclosed area where the sheep are trained."

For your education, AKC C-Course requires and unfenced area. Here, I'll show you the rules from the AKC Herding Regulations:
Section 1. Course C. Course C reflects a tending shepherd’s day, as he/she accompanies the flock, moving to various unfenced grazing areas.

Unfenced grazing areas, see that?


Is it more fun to tend 200 rather than 50? Sure it is, because it's easier. 50 sheep can get very reactive. 200, not so much. A large flock is much less nerve wracking for the handler than is a small flock. The AKC recognizews that and says in its Regulations:  Although the minimum number of sheep allowed are 20, larger flocks give the best opportunity for success. The C-Course trials I've been to have used 100 sheep.

Molly, that Brix was able to get a HGH is terrific. The opportunities for that title are far too few. But please, don't disparage the AKC herding program which is just as challenging and just as valid as the HGH.

The HGH trials use the same sheep and the same fields/course where the dogs have trained. The dogs and sheep know each other and the dogs know the land. In C-Course they bring in sheep to make the flock number near 100. The sheep don't know the pastures, they don't know the other flock they're put with, they don't know the dogs, and the dogs don't know the sheep. Again, perhaps more of a challenge than a HGH on the dog's home field with dog broke sheep.

I've trained in both venues. I found the 50 head flock harder to manage.

But to get back on topic as to herding lines. Check with Susan Sullivan in Massachusetts. She can talk your ear off about herding bloodlines - American lines. Or Ellen Nickelsberg in upstate New York, a herding lines expert. PM me if you want contact information.

gagsd4,
No I am not using him for herding at this time.

I have not owned sheep for several years now.

This may soon change if the economy does not improve however.

The main reason a herding background impressed me was not just the instincts but the intelligence and temperament required for a dog to do herding work.

There are many tasks the GSD excels in today but this was what the breed was developed to do by Stephanitz.

I watched my previous dog and the sheep learn from each other and this was not a pedigree dog or domestic sheep.
I was amazed to see them reading each others movement and the basic instincts at work.

It is far more interesting than Schutzhund to me.
And the dogs are an active part of my family as well.

Moons.

Yes, Ulf has 350 head that he uses for his HGH test.  At least that is what he told me - I assume he would know.  I didn't count them.  Still not impressed with akc or other venues, as a "true test" compared to HGH - sorry.

molly

Moons--- It is VERY neat!! I have done HICs on several dogs but never large(r) flock herding.

What surprised me though is how off I was in my dogs reactions. I thought both would be hell-bent on the sheep... neither was. I thought Ari would be more of a natural than Anik, wrong again.  So I learned a lot about C-course, and my dogs, when I took them out.

--Mary

I have become very interested in Herding here recently, I am supposed to take my two young dogs for an instinct test sometime in March, if weather permits.  The only problem is that I cannot find anyone more locally, I will have to drive 2-3 hours for the test, it may be hard to commit to that for many reasons. 

 

Daryle & Aqua,

Wow, you both have impressed me, I could learn alot from you clearly!  lol  Do either of you know anyone in Virginia who trains for herding?  It does not matter to me if it is HGH style or AKC, in my opinion both would be an accomplishment for me and my dogs.  I have searched the web and it is not very popular in this area.  Would I be able to excel with a BC trainer?  I just would not want to waste my time on someone who would not be best suited to train my shepherds.  Thanks