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Robin, I don't dispute that many of these dogs do not have emphasis placed on training. You would think that being an international forum and biggest breed show in world that dogs that were serious contenders would be adequately prepared in all aspects. I really think that some people feel that many of these dogs that will not reengage probably have issues that go beyond training. The point that is important is for the dogs that don't pass this aspect for obvious nerve/drive weaknesses, that they are not rewarded by being bred. A dog without strong foundational training can well be a good dog that continues the excellence of the breed, but a dog with nerve weaknesses should not be continued to be bred by responsible breeders. Otherwise, this issue will continue to be a blight on this great show. There are many showline breeders that have stepped up their game, and frankly giving Javir V54, I think was a missed opportunity, nevertheless its much higher than ratings in the past by these dogs.
Gustav, how do you pick which dogs have weak nerves/temperment from the ones who's training wasn't adequate or just had an "off" day?
If a dog performs poorly at a large show, one I consider "THE SHOW" for gsd, then how is it determined that he had a bad day? is it how he performs the rest of the year that determines he just had an off day, or do some of these dogs continually perform poorly but are passed simply because trial days are always their "off" days?
I agree that some of these animals are given placings, or meerly passed, just to have them go on to sire hundreds, if not more than that, pups a year. this does not help to improve working ability or temperment in the breed.
Uber Land, you ask a very good question...I will say that i have worked some showlines that have excellent nerve and drives. I will also say that the showlines that I have worked that were like that I can imagine them coming off the sleeve in any normal situation, similar to my own dogs. (Now you can abuse a dog off the sleeve but that doesn't hppen in a public trial). Some dogs do get bad presentations, but good dogs will immediately re engage the helper afterwards. I guess for me ANY dog that will not re engage after coming off has "issues" that exceed training. I still think the bigger issue is the breeding of these dogs once it is shown they are weak and what that does to the breed. Personally, If I had a showline female with good nerve and drive I would run to a dog like Javir who not only has good structure, and temperament, but the litter as a whole was very excellent. Sure, you may lose a little uniformity, but in the big picture the genetic pool would be enlarged.JMO
Gustav, I agree completely. However, are there working line folk who would not want to allow show lines to breed to their dogs? I get this attitude from a few, that there is no sense trying to improve the nerves and drive of show lines or broadening their gene pool because it will only diminish what is being brought to the breeding by the working line parent (ie, just breed good working line dogs and don't bother with show lines anymore). These people place so much emphasis on genetics, which I don't see as bad per se, but it is often confusing to me, as I have a working line dog with a nice pedigree yet she is a shy nervebag with no drive for SchH work, and I have a show line dog who according to their genetic analysis should totally suck at work because he is from show line genes, yet he is far superior to my working line dog in every way....so what gives? Anyway, I would love to see more show/working combos if people on both sides can swallow their pride.
BUMP .. Nice Thread ...
Most Of u Are talking abt some nice ideas but all of u u dont notice that u are talking Off-Topic ? Any can answer on the First Question ?
What gives...you have a freak situation......not normal but rather the exception. What happened in the bitework in the seiger show...did it follow your example(work--weak, show-strong), or did it 100percent go the other way??????
Joeleb, you are right, but people who are familar with the lines of the dogs that didnot do well, are very reluctant to discuss this detail. Thus it doesn't improve and seems to increase every year.
Ok let me see if I understand... dog does not do well on bite work... bad day, bad training, bad helper.. That means that EVERY SINGLE DOG is GOOD. It just had a bad day???? Right? that is the believe in here.
The biggest event: first 30 dogs and 11 do not pass since this is their bad day.. I have not watch the video. I go by what has been said here
The pople enter the "athletes" dogs and WHAT? hope that the dog will do ok even when the preparation was not done properly? They will hope that something will happen and the dog will perform great dispite of the fact that is has not been prepared accordingly to the event.
Lets say the Helper really made it hard on the dog.. what was so hard? can I see the video somewhere of this helper because I am curious WHAT difficult means in an Event picking the BEST OUT OF THE BEST. I want to know why these dogs did not pass.
I want to know!!! Why do you enter your dog if you are not prepared? Why do you blame all including the wind blow but yourself? Why do you enter dog that maybe, just maybe does not cut it?
My thoughts based on what has been written...
Pack
I want to see the video. I am going to look for it to fing that one helper that made a bad day for sooooo many world class $100K dogs..lol
I also take an issue even among the dogs that DO pass! Many of them I don't think should pass. I took my husband's parents to the bitework at the USA SS in Chicago, this is the first dog event of ANY kind that they have ever attended, and even after a few rounds they were asking me "why did that one pass, it let go?" Using several leash pops just to get the dog to sit, crawling on the belly, watching the crowd or handler instead of guarding, shallow grips, sliding off the sleeve, running down the field only to basically stop and take a tiny hop at the helper onto the sleeve...and these are all "pronounced"?!?! I'm not trying to take responsibility off the owners/handlers for not training harder and taking it more seriously, but I guess it makes sense not to take it seriously at all when so little is required to pass.
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