Schutzhund Training makes dogs more aggresive? - Page 3

GSDluver, there is no other breed except the German Sheperd....lol

People pick there puppies in several different manners.  The schutzhund trainer has a check list of traits they look for when they pick their puppy.  Sometimes they seem silly on the method, but some of them work.  Some look for a friendly dog, a dog that isn't timid or afraid.  They take rattles to shake, they check the dog's drive - turn the dog over and see how they fight, they take rags to see how the dog bites...they pull their tails and pinch their toes.......it goes on and on on what a schutzhund person will do - they drive the puppies around see if they get car sick....the list goes on and on.....

It sounds like you want a pet.  I am a firm believer that a GSD is a well rounded dog for any situation.  If you do choose to get a GSD - pick your puppy according to some of the trait you want.  You really don't ever know what the pup is growing to grow up like - but you look at the parents and  grandparents.  Then when you get to see the litter - try some of the schutzhund methods of picking - you are looking for some of the opposite traits that a schutzhund trainer would look for - it sounds like you don't want a dog with a lot of drive, doesn't like to bite and not very active.  There are GSD out there like that - believe me.... You can even go to a rescue and get a grown down and you will know up front what you got....

But if you want to do schutzhund with that dog - it might not work and you will be disappointed in the outcome...of course, this is just my opinion....

Oh, and by the way the comment - "well by aggressive I mean since the dog is trained to react a certain way and when to bite. if someday me and my friends or family members did something and triggered his instinct and he bites him. I don't want something like that to happen". 
I had a Chihuahua that would bite you quicker than any of my GSDs would in a family situation.    It is the dog - not the breed.....
 

GDSluver, By nature the German Shepherd should be a strong confident dog that is capable of discriminating situations that are threatening or non threatening. This is part of the breed standard and what a German Shepherd should be. Between Europe and Noth America, there are probably more than a quarter million GSD with Sch degrees. If the concerns you have were anything but an isolated example, then we would be reading about instances of what you have concerns about on a regular basis with this many dogs having the degree. It sounds like you really want a dog that has more of a Lab or Golden temperament than a true GS temperament. That's not a put down to you just my understanding of the type of dog you desribe you want.

Gdslover - You were asking about Schutzhund - not civil police protection - right?

Shutzhund is a sport - civil defence is not a sport it is serious

Shutzhund dogs are not supposted to be trained to be agressive and to bite others - only the sleeve

Civil dogs are trained to stop bad guys who are not wearning a sleeve.

These are two are completely different.

If your Schutzhund club is training for civil - get out and find another one - because they are not training Shutzhund.

Civil will make a dog agressive........

If that's the case Sitasmom, than Schutzhund is no different than an obedience course.  Why do folks call them working dogs?  I don't know of any job for a dog which includes protecting one from a bad guy with a sleeve on.

Schutzhund is supposed to be  a test to find a dog that is intelligent and easily trained, one  that will lie with children during the day but have the courage to protect them if necessary.   That's the kind of club I want to belong too.  That's the kind of dog I want.

Sitasmom, how long have you been doing Schutzhund?  I'm just curious if you have titled any dogs and what level of experience you have? 

I see some different terms being used and their interpretations may cause some confusion.  To me a "civil" dog is a dog that will bite a person with or with out equipment.  I don't mean a fear biter, I mean a strong dog that will engage a subject who is not wearing any equipment.  "Civil" dogs can and are trained in schutzhund and compete at the highest levels.  Many top schH dogs only bite the sleeve because it is there and they are trained to target that area.  If the decoy dropped the sleeve the dog would perform the exact same way and bite the decoy.  A "civil" dog is in it for the fight with the man not the equipment.  This is the dog's temperament.  Dogs like this are higher in defense drive than prey drive.   My male, who is now my police K9 is very "civil.'   I did SchH with him first and he was a super SchH dog, very serious .  His hold and bark was in the decoys face, if the decoy made serious eye contact or agitated him the dog would bite him in the chest or get up into his face.  The dog means business.  As a decoy you learn how to work these dogs or you get bit alot; it's a self correcting exercise.  Now, does this mean that this serious dog that is focused on the decoy and can't be petted by strangers can't do SchH?  Absolutely not, he would be a top level sport dog.   

Now, I have a female GSD who is loaded in prey.  She works for the sleeve as a reward, she wouldn't bite the decoy if he dropped the sleeve.  However, her grips are always full and she scores well in SchH.  Two completely different dogs.  With the male through SchH training he learned to only bite the sleeve and is a safe dog to work, although he is intense and has scared many decoys with his serious nature.  This dog is never petted by strangers, I don't let kids or adults near him.  When converting him to a police dog he needed to re learn his aggression work and the hold and bark is no longer done.

Hard "civil" or "sharp" dogs can do SchH and do it everyday.  Look at most of the top competitive dogs at the Nationals or WUSV, they are not all pets sleeping on the couch.  So SchH protection training is more about control, hard, aggressive, civil dogs learn the appropriate time to bite and out.  When trained properly they are under more control. 

You can bring out a more serious side in a dog through more defense work.  But you must be careful and it has to be done by an experienced decoy and trainer. 

You will find many experienced SchH people prefer a "civil" more serious dog to train and compete with; I know I do.  I want a dog that is real, it is much more impressive to watch a dog during a trial that actually wants to engage the man and not the sleeve.  As you gain more experience you will be able to see the difference immediately in the hold and bark.

JMO FWIW,

Jim

I've watched police dog training and Slamdunc definitely knows what he is talking about. That kind of hard, civil dog will go for whatever part of the decoy they can get at if he looks them in the eye. If the decoy turns and runs away, they'll take him down by whatever means necessary, often by jumping on his back and biting. This is not sport training. On the street, it could be life and death. The dog has to have strong defense drive.

My own dog works in prey, which I want. I am too old to deal with a hard, civil male. In my younger days, I would have wanted one like that. Not anymore. But you younger people with healthy joints who are competing in sport do like a hard, civil dog and that is completely understandable. Many national and world class podium quality dogs are like that. 

To the original poster: Schuthund training is a sport. It is not designed to make a dog aggressive. It is a highly sylized activity and there is some biting involved, but only of a padded sleeve. It requires obedience from the dog in all phases. Some GSDs do not have the temperament to do schutzhund. They may refuse to track, refuse to bite even in prey (there are reasons for this that involve both training and genetics) or have some sort of failure of nerve that makes them unsuitable for the sport.

If you want a wonderful, calm companion you may want a Golden Retriever rather than a GSD. This is not a put down so please don't take it that way. I'm acquainted with some very nice Goldens. GSDs are mostly very active dogs who need a lot of exercise and some sort of job to do. You MUST obedience train a GSD. You must be prepared to spend hours a day working or exercising your GSD. I recommend you search for more information on GSDs. Read the breed description on the Schutzhund USA site http://www.germanshepherddog.com/ 
and the German Shepherd Dog Club of America-Working Dog Association http://www.gsdca-wda.org/
and the GSDCA http://www.gsdca.org/

If you read German, the Deutsche Schaeferhund Verein site is: http://www.schaeferhund.de

There are many activities a GSD can do besides schutzhund, like herding, tracking, SAR, obedience, service dog, and more. Do lots of investigation before you decide on a breed of dog. The AKC site is also a good resource: http://www.akc.org/

I couldnt agree more with you Jim....very well written. 

This is a picture of my boyfriends dog who is in training to be his Police K9...this is TJ doing a hold and bark...he is looking right into the helpers eyes. He is directly challenging.....he has a very nice deep rythmic bark...I like my dogs more on the civil side. 

Just curious, how many females are civil?  Or is it the male that usually has more defense drive?

The pup I have now is gonna be pretty civil, she is already showing signs.
The thing is: the right training and support for the dog. If the dog has it it can be bevelopped and brought up. If the dog doesn't have it well we can make it look OK.
I have seen few nice females. Not that many of them made it past firs title, breed survey ... they are not worked as much as males.
There is plenty great females out there!!!!

Jim (Slamdunc)
That is one of the best posts I have ever seen on this site. Very, very informative and correct!

Gsdluver,
Don't be scared off. There is some really good advice in this thread.
One thing that wasn't mentioned (I think) is that one of the greatest benefits of doing Schutzhund training with your dog is that you will learn so much more about your dog, and, dog's in general. Being able to read a dog opens up a whole new world to you.
My opinion on what you have heard from most of the posters is the same. You will have a safer dog. I believe this for two reasons. First, your dog will have learned to think through the process of biting and why. An untrained dog, in my opinion, is much more of a potential ticking time bomb. An untrained dog is more reactive and less of a thinker. Second, and in the end, more importantly, you will learn to read your dog, as well as other dogs. Having an understanding of what is going on in the dog's head is what makes it possible for a man like Slamdunc to have a dog like his male he decribes above. That type of dog is not for everyone, and at this point, certainly not the type of dog for you. A dog like he describes above is truly a beautiful animal to see with the correct handler.
There is a GSD out there for you. It is good that you came here to get some info. Research and read as much as possible. Go to a local Schutzhund club. Ask as many questions as possible. None of them are stupid. If the club members make you feel stupid go somewhere else. The people that I care to be around in this sport would never demean someone that was new and looking for information. Usually, you have a horde of people around that are glad to help knowing full well that they were in your shoes at one point, and probably not too long ago. Please realize that you don't have to jump off the deep end and start training for the world championship right away, or ever. There are a great deal of people that are very happy to be out training their dog because it is fun to do so and creates a great bond. Many people never trial their dog, or, only will do so a few times. Don't let it overwhelm you in the beginning. Too many make this mistake and are gone in 4-5 months. Always remember that your dog doesn't care if it gets a title or not, and doesn't care how long it takes. It is happy to be enjoying its time with you. 
Someone at a club will probably know where to find the correct dog for you. If there are breeders in the club, the best one is probably the person that won't sell you a dog/puppy because it isn't a good fit. This is, most likely, the person that will offer sound advice about finding a dog. Most clubs have various types of dogs training there. Ask about the differences. Look for a dog that has great temperament. It is the best place to start.