VA 1 Pakros d'Ulmental--ED: noch zugelassen - Page 3

Since the GSD market is sure to be flooded with Pakros progeny, IMO a discussion regarding his elbows and the influence he will have on the future of the breed in the US due to NZ elbows is certainly prudent and really not disrespectful if considered in a positive light. If he were my dog and I knew his record for producing normal elbow conformation was at or above the expected average for the breed, I'd welcome the opportunity to share that information with prospective puppy buyers or bitch owners.

Most longtime members of this board have the savy to try to find out about Parkos' history for elbow production, assuming there is a history, prior to cutting a deal for a puppy or a stud service. . They are probably not going to rush out and buy one of his puppies or breed a bitch to him only because he is the 2007 Sieger.  They will do their homework much as they would if he had NZ hips. My concern is with the newer people who will be looking to buy a puppy sired by Pakros, will they get enough information from the breeder/broker to make an educated decision on whether or not they want to take the risk of buying a dog sired by a Sieger with NZ elbows. What are the odds of that puppy also having ED based on Pakros' progeny that have already had their elbow evaluated by the SV? Is that information available? IMO, it's really not sound advice to state that since Pakros shows no lameness, then he is a good breeding risk without quoting what he is producing elbow wise.  I won't even get into how drugs can mask lameness or how surgery can go unnoticed since I don't want to be accused of suggesting this dog is doped or surgically corrected. Just saying not everything is WYSIWYG is the dog world. 

I am not naive enough to think that all breeders are going to do their homework before using Pakros. He is certainly a very beautiful dog and well deserving of his title.  It seems that many wait for the results of the Siegerschau before making their breeding plans final, it is that important to some. That beauty and title may have more influence on many decisions than the status of his elbows or what he is likely to produced in combination with specific bloodlines. ED is not a rare condition in the GSD. Currently I know of 1 young dog that is scheduled for surgery since he is in an huge amount of pain due to UAP.  His owners, pet people, are just sick worrying if this is going to give him a pain free life. Another dog is in need of a home after being scratched from a working program, ED. Others have posted to this and other breed boards about dogs they have had to have operated on or put down due to ED. These are not junkyard dogs, they are all from well known pedigrees.

I don't know if the SV program for hips works better than OFA's since we don't really have real time information from OFA as to how many from each litter were xrayed vs how many passes and failures, the grades of HD, the status of siblings in the first 3, 4 generations. It behooves breeders to try to compile that information on their own if hips are a priority in their breeding program. Maybe the SV does a better job of record keeping than OFA. If so I'd like someone to post a link to their website that shows these stats if there is such a site. In order to understand and utilize production statisitics, one needs to know how these numbers were calculated. It is way too easy to manipulate numbers in favor of one side or the other.

I would think since Parkos is 5 he would have enough progeny out that has been x-rayed and the information on his elbow production is less of an unknown.  As with all breeding, you have to look into the pedigree in addition to the dog itself.

In regards to the elbow grading system, there may be things in the elbows that the OFA considers "normal" that the SV system might be using to grade.  I would suggest finding out what the criteria for their grading system is based on specifically. Even with OFA some days the way they grade the dogs makes you scratch your head.  

Also with the SV I believe all the results for submitted x-rays are published, unlike the OFA.  If you have a dog that doesn't pass, due to their privacy policy you can keep this information off the website. 

Just thought I'd throw these out here since I have them.  Dante's elbows at 2 (Pictures taken w/x-rays in the window, sorry for the quality)

Right: OFA DJD Grade I

Left: OFA Normal

The International Elbow Working Group  gives the worldwide standard

IEWG        OFA           SV

0                0                normal/ near (fast) normal  NORMAL und GRENZFALL  Both considered: IWG/OFA 0

1               1                 noch zugelassen                  See: dissertation F. Kirchhoff, Hannover ED/HD p.32

2               2                mittler

3                3              schwer                                    SV follows the gradings of the IEWG  Grade 2,3 Excluded from breeding See:

Inaugurall Dissertation 2003 (Phd) Dr. F.Kirchoff 

 Elbow score offspring X-rayed Period 1.04.2005 up to 2.05.2006 1. Sieger Pakros 2. Quen 3. Dux Q.Flores Source: SV-Genetics

Nr. 1 175x - ED A 168 95,4% - ED B 0,6 % - ED C 4 % aantal
Nr. 2 108x - ED A 103 95%- ED B 2% - ED C 3% -
Nr. 3 98x - ED A 79 74% ED. B 19% - ED C 7% 

Conclusion: Though ED-nz of Pakros the results of the X-Rayed offspring is o.k. compared to VA 2 and VA 3.
         

To make it clear:   Grade  0  = a (normal) or  b (near/fast normal: Grenzfall)  Grade 1 = c.

On the Dutch forum: www.duitseherders.com keyword stellingen : the same discussion is going on. the results of X-Rayed elbows of offspring is by Yvonne Schultz (Thank you, Yvonne). Source is SV Genetics  2005/2006

Ofcourse wenn the BundessiegerZUCHTschau the BundesZUCHTschau has to consider important ZUCHTinformation. The X-ray results of Pakros offspring concerning ED seemes to be satisfactory

I have a male that received an NZ for his elbows by the SV.  We redid them here and he has OFA clear elbows.   This can be verified by looking on the HDZW disc and the OFA website.   I feel that some of the first evaluations of elbows submitted to the SV were graded incorrectly.   I have experienced no elbow problems in his offspring and my Pakros daughter has super elbows (clear on her prelims).

I have a male that received an NZ for his elbows by the SV.  We redid them here and he has OFA clear elbows.   This can be verified by looking on the HDZW disc and the OFA website.   I feel that some of the first evaluations of elbows submitted to the SV were graded incorrectly.   I have experienced no elbow problems in his offspring and my Pakros daughter has super elbows (clear on her prelims).

We would all be wise to pay attention to DH.........

She's a smart lady

GARD, thank you. Very kind :o).

Dana, very interesting. Thank you for taking the time (or thank Yvonne) to count out the numbers. I only had a cursory look. The data the SV provides right now cannot be called up as quickly for ED as it can for HD. Would you mind eMailing me privately please?

One other thing you need to consider is that we have established new data with Pakros. His parents or grandparents have not been a-stamped for ED. So even with Pakros own rating what does that tell us? Very little. For all we know the nz rating is a fluke, a smudge on the x-ray, an evaluator with the wrong set of dice that day or a hang over...
It is in fact more valuable now to breed to Pakros (sensibly that is) and collect data that results from such breedings for later use than to avoid something we don't even know what it is yet. Breeding is not picking out the raisins that bob around the surface. It is so much more. You cannot demand sound dogs on one hand and be afraid to 'field test' on the other. GSD breeding has always been a performance based breeding. So yes, when I see a dog that has been shown at the Sieger Show 5 times in a row and always in the top, I am for one satisfied that the dogs performance outweighs one persons opinion of an x-ray or even a less than perfect joint. Because lets say Pakros elbows were in fact not ideal at the time of x-ray, it has not lessened or hindered his performance whatsoever. Despite of that his body remains strong and functional. I prefer to see a strong specimen that beats the odds. But that is just my personal take. As a breeder, part of breeding is to see what is produced when. Breeders have for decades done 'control litters' to see what else is lurking and where it might come from. That will never happen if you breed only what appears to be ideal on the surface. Breeding is taking risks. One test will be no guarantee for anything. That is projecting false hope into those people who need something, some false prophets to hold onto instead of facing a bit of reality: no matter how much we test and screen and select, there will always be some dogs who will have problems. We should neither be reckless nor overly cautious. Sensible risks are worth taking.

This has to me been a very interesting and informative post.  Thank you D.H. for taking the time to explain your viewpoint.  It certainly brings alot into perspective.   Things that I have not considered prior to this post.