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by Jeff Oehlsen on 15 August 2010 - 04:08
Quote: Ask Karl Fuller of Kirschental.
The great WHORE Karl Fuller ?? Where are your working dogs Karl ?? When you saw the $$$$$ you followed it like a 16 year old boy follows the girl who says yes.
The great WHORE Karl Fuller ?? Where are your working dogs Karl ?? When you saw the $$$$$ you followed it like a 16 year old boy follows the girl who says yes.
by maywood on 15 August 2010 - 17:08
Quote: There's less drag when running with a tucked tail. - Darylehret
I hear ya, I thought it was amusing too. :-)
Quote: Dogs should be able to outrun humans, but humans have a more efficient heat dissipation system and dogs simply overheat and need to cool down. That is why the AD is not a 12 mile run, but broken up in segments with a break in between each segment. – charlie319
This is absolutely correct. I would also add that the majority of today’s show lines seem to have deeper chests and therefore a larger lung capacity which helps them breath in more air further improving their ability to cool themselves down which of course translates into better endurance in the animal.
Quote: REALLY ?? It's like us putting on a jacket ?? REALLY ??? – Jeff Oehlson
Well, if you truly want to emulate the canine experience you would have to put on a pair of plastics underneath your sweats. Of course, our tongues aren’t nearly long enough to dissipate the heat quickly enough so you wouldn’t last nearly as long as they do.
Quote: Jeff, Great Descriptions too. You are cracking me up. – Jacko
You know, as much as I despised Jeff earlier in this thread, I have to agree with you. He is starting to grow on me a little too. Thanks for keeping this conversation grounded. You are a great mediator.
Jeff, since you’re pretty much representing the working line community in this discussion, I would be curious to know what it is that fills you guys up with so much hate towards the show line community. Quite frankly, I never see this behavior reciprocated from the show line community towards you guys. For example, I have never read or heard anyone in the show line community going on record to shout blasphemous words towards Helmut Raiser. I could be wrong of course, but it seems to me they just ignore him and concentrate on the task at hand.
Furthermore, at the end of the day, I think all of this separation is just hurting the breed because nobody really likes to see or hear about this crap. For people new to the breed, it just causes confusion. I mean, think about it, someone has just purchased a new show line puppy and they are all excited about getting involved in Schutzhund. And since the working line community pretty much runs the majority of the Schutzhund clubs in this country you guys kind of “rain on their parade” with all of this negativity. And then those same new puppy owners are now all depressed and not so excited anymore. Is all of this negativity really that necessary? Can’t you guys just be happy and proud that your dogs outperform the show lines on the Schutzhund field? I think everyone would love to see this negativity “go the way of the Dodo” as it seems to do nothing but hurt the breed’s popularity and especially the sport of Schutzhund in this country.
I hear ya, I thought it was amusing too. :-)
Quote: Dogs should be able to outrun humans, but humans have a more efficient heat dissipation system and dogs simply overheat and need to cool down. That is why the AD is not a 12 mile run, but broken up in segments with a break in between each segment. – charlie319
This is absolutely correct. I would also add that the majority of today’s show lines seem to have deeper chests and therefore a larger lung capacity which helps them breath in more air further improving their ability to cool themselves down which of course translates into better endurance in the animal.
Quote: REALLY ?? It's like us putting on a jacket ?? REALLY ??? – Jeff Oehlson
Well, if you truly want to emulate the canine experience you would have to put on a pair of plastics underneath your sweats. Of course, our tongues aren’t nearly long enough to dissipate the heat quickly enough so you wouldn’t last nearly as long as they do.
Quote: Jeff, Great Descriptions too. You are cracking me up. – Jacko
You know, as much as I despised Jeff earlier in this thread, I have to agree with you. He is starting to grow on me a little too. Thanks for keeping this conversation grounded. You are a great mediator.
Jeff, since you’re pretty much representing the working line community in this discussion, I would be curious to know what it is that fills you guys up with so much hate towards the show line community. Quite frankly, I never see this behavior reciprocated from the show line community towards you guys. For example, I have never read or heard anyone in the show line community going on record to shout blasphemous words towards Helmut Raiser. I could be wrong of course, but it seems to me they just ignore him and concentrate on the task at hand.
Furthermore, at the end of the day, I think all of this separation is just hurting the breed because nobody really likes to see or hear about this crap. For people new to the breed, it just causes confusion. I mean, think about it, someone has just purchased a new show line puppy and they are all excited about getting involved in Schutzhund. And since the working line community pretty much runs the majority of the Schutzhund clubs in this country you guys kind of “rain on their parade” with all of this negativity. And then those same new puppy owners are now all depressed and not so excited anymore. Is all of this negativity really that necessary? Can’t you guys just be happy and proud that your dogs outperform the show lines on the Schutzhund field? I think everyone would love to see this negativity “go the way of the Dodo” as it seems to do nothing but hurt the breed’s popularity and especially the sport of Schutzhund in this country.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 15 August 2010 - 18:08
QUOTE :
Quote: REALLY ?? It's like us putting on a jacket ?? REALLY ??? – Jeff Oehlson
Well, if you truly want to emulate the canine experience you would have to put on a pair of plastics underneath your sweats. Of course, our tongues aren’t nearly long enough to dissipate the heat quickly enough so you wouldn’t last nearly as long as they do.
Yet they still outran me on the hottest day. It is all about conditioning.
QUOTE:
Jeff, since you’re pretty much representing the working line community in this discussion, I would be curious to know what it is that fills you guys up with so much hate towards the show line community.
Show line dogs cannot do what the breed is supposed to be able to do. Not only that, they are greater in numbers, so they lower the bar greatly on what a dog should be capable of. Just look at your above example. Yet every dog but one ran with me no matter what time of day, and had little problem smoking my bags.
That is just one example. Look at what passes in their shows as a Sch3. Embarrassing. Of course they can't hate us, they are the ones lowering the bar, and producing goofy looking dogs that have no character. Yet, when I say something like that, they all bust out the ONE or two that do ok, out of literally hundreds of thousands.
It is not like I am silly with joy with the working line people. Many of the dogs have way too high thresholds for the work, amongst other things like lack of character.
QUOTE:
Furthermore, at the end of the day, I think all of this separation is just hurting the breed because nobody really likes to see or hear about this crap.
You are right, Lets kill off all these show line shitters and get these people on board with actually training their dogs, and abolish dog shows. Last thing anyone wants to see is some great queer prancing around the ring. LOL
It only hurts those that willingly breed dogs for looks knowing that the dogs they produce will not stand in the door and say this is my family, I will die for them. Too many of these people I see with their shitter pressed against their legs growling at me and they are babbling about "See ! ! ! He is protecting me". OH GOOD GREIF.
QUOTE:
Can’t you guys just be happy and proud that your dogs outperform the show lines on the Schutzhund field?
It is supposed to be the same damn breed skippy. There should be little difference. They still sell the damn things based on what the working lines can do. BUT THEY LIE !
Quote: REALLY ?? It's like us putting on a jacket ?? REALLY ??? – Jeff Oehlson
Well, if you truly want to emulate the canine experience you would have to put on a pair of plastics underneath your sweats. Of course, our tongues aren’t nearly long enough to dissipate the heat quickly enough so you wouldn’t last nearly as long as they do.
Yet they still outran me on the hottest day. It is all about conditioning.
QUOTE:
Jeff, since you’re pretty much representing the working line community in this discussion, I would be curious to know what it is that fills you guys up with so much hate towards the show line community.
Show line dogs cannot do what the breed is supposed to be able to do. Not only that, they are greater in numbers, so they lower the bar greatly on what a dog should be capable of. Just look at your above example. Yet every dog but one ran with me no matter what time of day, and had little problem smoking my bags.
That is just one example. Look at what passes in their shows as a Sch3. Embarrassing. Of course they can't hate us, they are the ones lowering the bar, and producing goofy looking dogs that have no character. Yet, when I say something like that, they all bust out the ONE or two that do ok, out of literally hundreds of thousands.
It is not like I am silly with joy with the working line people. Many of the dogs have way too high thresholds for the work, amongst other things like lack of character.
QUOTE:
Furthermore, at the end of the day, I think all of this separation is just hurting the breed because nobody really likes to see or hear about this crap.
You are right, Lets kill off all these show line shitters and get these people on board with actually training their dogs, and abolish dog shows. Last thing anyone wants to see is some great queer prancing around the ring. LOL
It only hurts those that willingly breed dogs for looks knowing that the dogs they produce will not stand in the door and say this is my family, I will die for them. Too many of these people I see with their shitter pressed against their legs growling at me and they are babbling about "See ! ! ! He is protecting me". OH GOOD GREIF.
QUOTE:
Can’t you guys just be happy and proud that your dogs outperform the show lines on the Schutzhund field?
It is supposed to be the same damn breed skippy. There should be little difference. They still sell the damn things based on what the working lines can do. BUT THEY LIE !
by Gustav on 15 August 2010 - 21:08
I don't condone Jeff's language, and I don't subcribe to his delivery, but in the last post his message is spot on. Its not about dog shows and breeding for what people want, its about breeding to maintain the integrity of when a person goes to a breeder to get a German Shepherd, they can reasonably expect to get the type of dog that represents the legacy of the breed. The breed was created to work, be vigilant, be steady, be courageous, be protective, etc whether it was working with man, family, or livestock. If you are breeding pretty dogs that consistently maintain this type of dog....my hat is off to you; but if you are breeding weak nerved, fearful, clumsy, spongeboned, types of dogs that don't represent these ideals, WHY should true GS breeders ACT like this is Okay to get along??? Because they are profitable to an unknowing public, or to allow everyone to own this breed; even those who only care about cosmetics and will let the working qualities or the qualities that created the legacy(the dog wasn't made to be shown...sorry thats a fact) go to hell in a handbasket.???
No, a resonsible breeder will not coexist with a breeder that is breeding dogs that doesn't represent the legacy of the breed. If show people are breeding dogs that still demonstrate high levels of working purpose....I HAVE no problem with them. But if what they are creating is so skewed in regard to cosmetics that it doesn't fullfil the purpose of the breed....then I can't just get along!!!! Its about the breed not people's ego for trophies, ribbons, and fame.JMO
No, a resonsible breeder will not coexist with a breeder that is breeding dogs that doesn't represent the legacy of the breed. If show people are breeding dogs that still demonstrate high levels of working purpose....I HAVE no problem with them. But if what they are creating is so skewed in regard to cosmetics that it doesn't fullfil the purpose of the breed....then I can't just get along!!!! Its about the breed not people's ego for trophies, ribbons, and fame.JMO
by Red Sable on 15 August 2010 - 22:08
Great post Gustav.
by charlie319 on 16 August 2010 - 00:08
Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey.... There you go again... Talking out of your ass just because at times your brain seems to reside within it...
You got any numbers to back that up, or is that just some sort of fantasy you would like to see happen??
I've stated before that there are some WL dogs that sould sompete in the show-ring, except for the established idiocy of having kicked sables & black dogs out in the 1970's and '80's. I can always trot out Triumph's Gucci, but that is not necessary. That being said, every week, there are show-line dogs that tittle in SchH. That you may, or may not work SL dogs is a personal choice of yours.
THis is complete crap. Why have a breed club then ?? Why have a judge or a sport ??
While I agree that a breed warden is a good utopian idea, the reality of the situation is that, here in the USA, the buying public is the arbiter and there is a large contingent that is not interested in plunking down a bundle for a dog which may, or may not, live up to the expectations created by a gaudy pedigree and breeder embelishments... Needless to mention that some of these embelisments are only to justify the oft quixotic prices one sees advertised. Both WL breeders as well as SL breeders are guilty of this. Do I advocate for breeding dogs that are not representative of the standard? absolutely not, however, both camps seem to want to use the standard to further thier own economic interests, while I believe that a SL/WL cross does fit in well witin it. BTW, we do have a breed and it is not just WL dogs, but includes SL dogs and everything in between... The "breed club" has shown its flaws in the past as someof its officials have used their pull to benefit a particular interest. After all, such was the situation that resulted in non blac & tans being displaced out of the showring.
I have to be honest, I don't see GSD's as "striking", especially the showlines goobling about on their hocks. I find their apple heads to be comical. So, I don't see a rationale, but a marketing scheme. I have yet to hear anyone go on at any length about WHY they are breeding the two together, other than to add to the show lines bullshit drives, and temperament.
Contrary to you, I can see the beauty in both SL and WL, except in the more extreme cases that result in the weak hocks and the overly loose joints, as well as dogs that are a bit too utilitarian or have disproportionate features such as "big blocky heads" or display such drives as to make them more of a hindrance than a complement to their owner's life. At least I admit that this is my own taste in dogs, and don't try to palm this off as the breed's gospel. IMPO, the genetic bottleneck being fostered by current (and not so current) breeding practices may be enough reason to carefully try to preserve the better traits of various bloodlines and avoid the obvious problems (genetic problems) that it may bring to the breed. as to "bulllshit drives and temperament", even you can select a SL dog pairing to avoid or mittigate such a situation. You just don't because, as a friend of mine used to say: "It is just too damn hard".
You got any numbers to back that up, or is that just some sort of fantasy you would like to see happen??
I've stated before that there are some WL dogs that sould sompete in the show-ring, except for the established idiocy of having kicked sables & black dogs out in the 1970's and '80's. I can always trot out Triumph's Gucci, but that is not necessary. That being said, every week, there are show-line dogs that tittle in SchH. That you may, or may not work SL dogs is a personal choice of yours.
THis is complete crap. Why have a breed club then ?? Why have a judge or a sport ??
While I agree that a breed warden is a good utopian idea, the reality of the situation is that, here in the USA, the buying public is the arbiter and there is a large contingent that is not interested in plunking down a bundle for a dog which may, or may not, live up to the expectations created by a gaudy pedigree and breeder embelishments... Needless to mention that some of these embelisments are only to justify the oft quixotic prices one sees advertised. Both WL breeders as well as SL breeders are guilty of this. Do I advocate for breeding dogs that are not representative of the standard? absolutely not, however, both camps seem to want to use the standard to further thier own economic interests, while I believe that a SL/WL cross does fit in well witin it. BTW, we do have a breed and it is not just WL dogs, but includes SL dogs and everything in between... The "breed club" has shown its flaws in the past as someof its officials have used their pull to benefit a particular interest. After all, such was the situation that resulted in non blac & tans being displaced out of the showring.
I have to be honest, I don't see GSD's as "striking", especially the showlines goobling about on their hocks. I find their apple heads to be comical. So, I don't see a rationale, but a marketing scheme. I have yet to hear anyone go on at any length about WHY they are breeding the two together, other than to add to the show lines bullshit drives, and temperament.
Contrary to you, I can see the beauty in both SL and WL, except in the more extreme cases that result in the weak hocks and the overly loose joints, as well as dogs that are a bit too utilitarian or have disproportionate features such as "big blocky heads" or display such drives as to make them more of a hindrance than a complement to their owner's life. At least I admit that this is my own taste in dogs, and don't try to palm this off as the breed's gospel. IMPO, the genetic bottleneck being fostered by current (and not so current) breeding practices may be enough reason to carefully try to preserve the better traits of various bloodlines and avoid the obvious problems (genetic problems) that it may bring to the breed. as to "bulllshit drives and temperament", even you can select a SL dog pairing to avoid or mittigate such a situation. You just don't because, as a friend of mine used to say: "It is just too damn hard".
by darylehret on 16 August 2010 - 12:08
What does "display such drives as to make them more of a hindrance than a complement to their owner's life" mean?
by charlie319 on 16 August 2010 - 12:08
I'm not knocking the dog type, just the situation... Not everyone who wants a GSD for its many extraordinary qualities wants or needs a dog with the set of drives for a serious working or protection competition dog. However, some do buy dogs with extraordinary pedigrees and end up with much more dog than they bargained for or are able to accomodate. I've seen a number of threads from owners whose dogs/puppies have them stumped and it boils down to an ill fit between dog temperament/drive/energy level and its owner's lifestyle.
by Gustav on 16 August 2010 - 13:08
BUT, don't change the BREEDING of the dog to accomodate these people. Let's hope that if they get a german shepherd again they are able to get one of the "softer" dogs out of a good strong litter. If the softer dog doesn't work, maybe the breed isn't for them though they "like" the looks. Bottom line is the dog should represent its legacy and perspective owners should realize and plan for an active working dog when they get a German Shepherd. JMO
by Jeff Oehlsen on 16 August 2010 - 14:08
Quote: That being said, every week, there are show-line dogs that tittle in SchH.
Do you really think those trials count ? Where are they ? I don't see any of these dogs at trials. Buying a title is not the same as rocking a title.
Quote: I can always trot out Triumph's Gucci, but that is not necessary.
Like I said, one dog. You can bust out one dog. I have never heard of it, but that doesn't mean much. Stupid show lines.
I never mentioned a breed warden. We are American not German. It wouldn't work. Look at that idiot Graf. She is/was the breed warden. Hilarious. You basically are condoning breeding bad dogs so that everyone can have a GSD. So you basically are saying it is ok to be a whore. Sell to who ever, but I have my head up my ass ?? Trust me, you are the one with your name written upside down carefully on your belt. I have no problem with people breeding dogs at all. However, when you start with dogs that are not even German Shepherds anymore, what do you think is going to happen ?
Quote: as to "bulllshit drives and temperament", even you can select a SL dog pairing to avoid or mittigate such a situation.
No, I cannot. I am 46, and not 13 getting my chain yanked by someone older. I know better. They are all shit. There are maybe one exception to this rule, but if the dog actually had drive we could use, the show people would not breed to them. It is very very hard to have 7 or 8 high drive dogs. However, it is easy to own 7 or 8 door knobs, So, they are all shit.
Do you really think those trials count ? Where are they ? I don't see any of these dogs at trials. Buying a title is not the same as rocking a title.
Quote: I can always trot out Triumph's Gucci, but that is not necessary.
Like I said, one dog. You can bust out one dog. I have never heard of it, but that doesn't mean much. Stupid show lines.
I never mentioned a breed warden. We are American not German. It wouldn't work. Look at that idiot Graf. She is/was the breed warden. Hilarious. You basically are condoning breeding bad dogs so that everyone can have a GSD. So you basically are saying it is ok to be a whore. Sell to who ever, but I have my head up my ass ?? Trust me, you are the one with your name written upside down carefully on your belt. I have no problem with people breeding dogs at all. However, when you start with dogs that are not even German Shepherds anymore, what do you think is going to happen ?
Quote: as to "bulllshit drives and temperament", even you can select a SL dog pairing to avoid or mittigate such a situation.
No, I cannot. I am 46, and not 13 getting my chain yanked by someone older. I know better. They are all shit. There are maybe one exception to this rule, but if the dog actually had drive we could use, the show people would not breed to them. It is very very hard to have 7 or 8 high drive dogs. However, it is easy to own 7 or 8 door knobs, So, they are all shit.
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