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by Bob McKown on 29 December 2010 - 18:12
Jeff:
If the dog is focused on the helper with intent in his bark Yes! you will get more points. I don,t think I would teach the dog to bark at a object.
How old is the dog in your video?
If the dog is focused on the helper with intent in his bark Yes! you will get more points. I don,t think I would teach the dog to bark at a object.
How old is the dog in your video?
by eichenluft on 29 December 2010 - 18:12
I would never and will never teach my dogs to bark in the blind for a toy. Not even if it would generate more points. That is not, IMO, the purpose of the GUARDING exercise. Training a dog to bark for a toy is training a behavior, just like you can train sit or roll over or sit up for a weenie. Not my deal, at least not for protection training. I want my dogs to be focused on the helper's face or body - not the sleeve, not the toy, not the handler. The dog should be involved in the 'game' and the bite/ fight should be the reward for guarding. IMO. Certainly no Schutzhund dogs I know personally are trained to bark in the blind for a ball or tug.
Bart Bellon, by the way, is a "big name" in RING SPORT - not Schutzhund. I guess those ring sport dogs can get more points by molding behaviors for toys in the blind as well as the "prey trained" schutzhund dogs eh?
molly
Bart Bellon, by the way, is a "big name" in RING SPORT - not Schutzhund. I guess those ring sport dogs can get more points by molding behaviors for toys in the blind as well as the "prey trained" schutzhund dogs eh?
molly
by Platz752 on 29 December 2010 - 18:12
Ideally you need a balance between prey and defense to get a full and strong bite that stays that way. A prey bite is full indeed but not not very strong, a pure defense bite is strong initially then goes to shit and is shallow. A dog that has good balance between prey and defense gives full strong bites that stay that way the whole time dog is on the helper. At least that is my understanding.
by Bob McKown on 29 December 2010 - 18:12
I agree with Molly. I,ve heard of Bart Bellon when dogs are talked about just never seen his work.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 29 December 2010 - 19:12
Bob, the dog is 17 months.
Quote: Ideally you need a balance between prey and defense to get a full and strong bite that stays that way. A prey bite is full indeed but not not very strong, a pure defense bite is strong initially then goes to shit and is shallow. A dog that has good balance between prey and defense gives full strong bites that stay that way the whole time dog is on the helper. At least that is my understanding.
I just need the dog to bite. If you have a dog that does not bite strongly in prey, then that is a problem. I do not care how the dog bites, just that he does.
Quote: Bart Bellon, by the way, is a "big name" in RING SPORT - not Schutzhund. I guess those ring sport dogs can get more points by molding behaviors for toys in the blind as well as the "prey trained" schutzhund dogs eh?
Look up any video you can find of his dog Zodt. I see that you think that training in prey is some sort of bad thing or an insult. I have found that in ring no one cares what the dog is thinking, just as long as the dog is biting. The idea is that the job gets done. Put on a suit and catch some dogs and you will see how weak a prey bite is. It is not like Sch where the sleeve protects you fully.
What I am pointing out is that people artificially make a dog appear to be "serious" in the blind. Why ? There is no extra points if the dog barks in prey or in defense. The dog just needs to do the job. If the dog is fake it is a false impression of what the dog really is. I don't get why anyone would want to do that.
Quote: Ideally you need a balance between prey and defense to get a full and strong bite that stays that way. A prey bite is full indeed but not not very strong, a pure defense bite is strong initially then goes to shit and is shallow. A dog that has good balance between prey and defense gives full strong bites that stay that way the whole time dog is on the helper. At least that is my understanding.
I just need the dog to bite. If you have a dog that does not bite strongly in prey, then that is a problem. I do not care how the dog bites, just that he does.
Quote: Bart Bellon, by the way, is a "big name" in RING SPORT - not Schutzhund. I guess those ring sport dogs can get more points by molding behaviors for toys in the blind as well as the "prey trained" schutzhund dogs eh?
Look up any video you can find of his dog Zodt. I see that you think that training in prey is some sort of bad thing or an insult. I have found that in ring no one cares what the dog is thinking, just as long as the dog is biting. The idea is that the job gets done. Put on a suit and catch some dogs and you will see how weak a prey bite is. It is not like Sch where the sleeve protects you fully.
What I am pointing out is that people artificially make a dog appear to be "serious" in the blind. Why ? There is no extra points if the dog barks in prey or in defense. The dog just needs to do the job. If the dog is fake it is a false impression of what the dog really is. I don't get why anyone would want to do that.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 29 December 2010 - 19:12
Here is a video for you. Couldn't find Zodt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NLlqiccc_Y
by ramgsd on 29 December 2010 - 20:12
Jeff I think it's funny that on the working dog forum your all about the REAL dog but on here you are talking about points. I know your training ability has to be better than the way you make it sound in your threads.
QUOTE: "Do you get more points for that ?"
Yes actually you do. That is why the SV has instructed the judges that they are to reward dogs that show strong guarding. Most good judges can tell the difference. I think it's great they are trying to get the dogs back into perspective.
QUOTE: "So, how is what you are doing any different ? Are you not shaping a behavior that isn't there ? "
WRONG. We're not shaping a behavior that is not there. Any dog, even without training will bark at someone. Same as your "gaurd the object" a dog will guard it's food... now just expand on that and use it in the sport.
QUOTE: " If the dog was really serious, would you need to "make him pay" in the bark and hold ?"
Jeff you need to think before you post. The problem can come up with all the pressure we put on the dog for the call out. It's a fine line pressure the dog up too much and he may be more worried about you than the helper... and start anticipating the call out.
QUOTE: "I see that you think that training in prey is some sort of bad thing or an insult. "
Sorry to make you think that way. A dog should be balanced in prey and defense. So needs to be worked in both. It's just that the B&H is supposed to be Defense. That is why the SV is making the distinction. To me a dog that does the prey B&H is actually giving you, your "false impression".
Brother when it comes right down too it you will train your dogs the way you want. I will train mine the way I want. You will feed what you like, I will feed what I like. When it comes to trial day I want the trophy for HELPERS CHOICE. (if you're not familar, it goes to the dog that bites the hardest and fight the most. YES, most of the time that is not the dog that Wins the trial., but it's the dog everyone wishes they had)
Jeff, we can just agree to disagree. I think I'm done here.
I wish you the best in all your endeavours. As long as your's don't conflict with mine. (Don might like that line;)
Rick
QUOTE: "Do you get more points for that ?"
Yes actually you do. That is why the SV has instructed the judges that they are to reward dogs that show strong guarding. Most good judges can tell the difference. I think it's great they are trying to get the dogs back into perspective.
QUOTE: "So, how is what you are doing any different ? Are you not shaping a behavior that isn't there ? "
WRONG. We're not shaping a behavior that is not there. Any dog, even without training will bark at someone. Same as your "gaurd the object" a dog will guard it's food... now just expand on that and use it in the sport.
QUOTE: " If the dog was really serious, would you need to "make him pay" in the bark and hold ?"
Jeff you need to think before you post. The problem can come up with all the pressure we put on the dog for the call out. It's a fine line pressure the dog up too much and he may be more worried about you than the helper... and start anticipating the call out.
QUOTE: "I see that you think that training in prey is some sort of bad thing or an insult. "
Sorry to make you think that way. A dog should be balanced in prey and defense. So needs to be worked in both. It's just that the B&H is supposed to be Defense. That is why the SV is making the distinction. To me a dog that does the prey B&H is actually giving you, your "false impression".
Brother when it comes right down too it you will train your dogs the way you want. I will train mine the way I want. You will feed what you like, I will feed what I like. When it comes to trial day I want the trophy for HELPERS CHOICE. (if you're not familar, it goes to the dog that bites the hardest and fight the most. YES, most of the time that is not the dog that Wins the trial., but it's the dog everyone wishes they had)
Jeff, we can just agree to disagree. I think I'm done here.
I wish you the best in all your endeavours. As long as your's don't conflict with mine. (Don might like that line;)
Rick
by Jeff Oehlsen on 29 December 2010 - 21:12
Quote: Jeff I think it's funny that on the working dog forum your all about the REAL dog but on here you are talking about points.
All dogs are "real" however, I do not like to "add" to a dog something that isn't there.
Quote: WRONG. We're not shaping a behavior that is not there. Any dog, even without training will bark at someone. Same as your "gaurd the object" a dog will guard it's food... now just expand on that and use it in the sport.
Well if the dog is barking at someone, then why all the added work ? As far as food, what do you do with a dog that does not guard his food ? : ) All my dogs will eat out of the same bowl if I let them. They all drink water at the same time. Since we have moved, I actually fed the dogs in the house, and not out in their kennels, and they all ate out of the same bowl. What then ?
Quote: Jeff you need to think before you post. The problem can come up with all the pressure we put on the dog for the call out. It's a fine line pressure the dog up too much and he may be more worried about you than the helper... and start anticipating the call out.
Again, that is a training problem. With all the spinning up you have to do to get your correct look, it causes the dog to not come back, as you had to do so much work to get the dog to stay there. See the difference ? If the dog was serious to begin with, you would have the same problem, but in a different way. Either way, it is a silly problem to have. That is just a training problem, based on the need to make the dog do something that he would not do naturally. As far as thinking, I don't have to think there, I asked a question.
Quote: Sorry to make you think that way. A dog should be balanced in prey and defense. So needs to be worked in both. It's just that the B&H is supposed to be Defense. That is why the SV is making the distinction. To me a dog that does the prey B&H is actually giving you, your "false impression".
As far as balanced, here we have all these dogs in other sports that are not worked in defense, and they are some of the strongest dogs out there, then you have this silly balanced thing in Sch, and while there are some strong dogs, there are no where near the amount that there are in the other sports. How do you explain that ?
Defense is a fear based reaction. You push a dog to fight, by making it afraid. What happens when the dog is not afraid ? You call it "locked in prey" which is silly. (general you ) Then, you look at the dog that is not afraid of the silly whip and look down on it, even though that dog will bite the shit out of you, regardless of sleeve or not.
These are the myths that need to be dispelled so that people can see what is going on in a dogs head. Here in the states, and you can see it on this thread, that the dogs that are revered do not come from here at all.
Quote: Brother when it comes right down too it you will train your dogs the way you want. I will train mine the way I want.
That is always a given. I am not trying to take away, just point out the hypocrasy in some of the thinking I see. I want a dog that you have to take down a notch, not one that you have to add to. Of course that will not always happen. I am not going out of my way to "add" to Esko. Some of the training will do that regardless of wether I want it to or not. However, when you look at him, or at Buko, you are seeing what the dog does on his own.
I understand that the Sch sport will always want a strong guard. I just don't like that it makes it so you have to fake one. It should not take points for that, and it should encourage it's competitors to show what the dog is on it's own, so that the breeders can look at dog and choose better dogs. I know some reall
All dogs are "real" however, I do not like to "add" to a dog something that isn't there.
Quote: WRONG. We're not shaping a behavior that is not there. Any dog, even without training will bark at someone. Same as your "gaurd the object" a dog will guard it's food... now just expand on that and use it in the sport.
Well if the dog is barking at someone, then why all the added work ? As far as food, what do you do with a dog that does not guard his food ? : ) All my dogs will eat out of the same bowl if I let them. They all drink water at the same time. Since we have moved, I actually fed the dogs in the house, and not out in their kennels, and they all ate out of the same bowl. What then ?
Quote: Jeff you need to think before you post. The problem can come up with all the pressure we put on the dog for the call out. It's a fine line pressure the dog up too much and he may be more worried about you than the helper... and start anticipating the call out.
Again, that is a training problem. With all the spinning up you have to do to get your correct look, it causes the dog to not come back, as you had to do so much work to get the dog to stay there. See the difference ? If the dog was serious to begin with, you would have the same problem, but in a different way. Either way, it is a silly problem to have. That is just a training problem, based on the need to make the dog do something that he would not do naturally. As far as thinking, I don't have to think there, I asked a question.
Quote: Sorry to make you think that way. A dog should be balanced in prey and defense. So needs to be worked in both. It's just that the B&H is supposed to be Defense. That is why the SV is making the distinction. To me a dog that does the prey B&H is actually giving you, your "false impression".
As far as balanced, here we have all these dogs in other sports that are not worked in defense, and they are some of the strongest dogs out there, then you have this silly balanced thing in Sch, and while there are some strong dogs, there are no where near the amount that there are in the other sports. How do you explain that ?
Defense is a fear based reaction. You push a dog to fight, by making it afraid. What happens when the dog is not afraid ? You call it "locked in prey" which is silly. (general you ) Then, you look at the dog that is not afraid of the silly whip and look down on it, even though that dog will bite the shit out of you, regardless of sleeve or not.
These are the myths that need to be dispelled so that people can see what is going on in a dogs head. Here in the states, and you can see it on this thread, that the dogs that are revered do not come from here at all.
Quote: Brother when it comes right down too it you will train your dogs the way you want. I will train mine the way I want.
That is always a given. I am not trying to take away, just point out the hypocrasy in some of the thinking I see. I want a dog that you have to take down a notch, not one that you have to add to. Of course that will not always happen. I am not going out of my way to "add" to Esko. Some of the training will do that regardless of wether I want it to or not. However, when you look at him, or at Buko, you are seeing what the dog does on his own.
I understand that the Sch sport will always want a strong guard. I just don't like that it makes it so you have to fake one. It should not take points for that, and it should encourage it's competitors to show what the dog is on it's own, so that the breeders can look at dog and choose better dogs. I know some reall
by Don Corleone on 29 December 2010 - 21:12
The "Turk" didn't like that line!
Rick, I agree with you. I brought up the dog in the blind earlier in the thread. Jeff had his retort and I was glad you took the time to type your heart out. I wasn't going to argue with the guy. Many people on here thought the video was great.
by Ibrahim on 29 December 2010 - 21:12
Very good topic, though for me too many scattered info and facts to put together, hat up to all contributors.
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