showline bred with workingline - Page 28

Maywood,
First off I'm glad that you found a pet that can keep up with you on your runs.  You are correct in stating that most dogs can not keep up with a highly trained human athlete over a long distance. 

You also stated:

Your right, endurance doesn't mean much if all you want to do is compete with the dog in Schutzhund. But let’s not forget, shepherds were bred to herd sheep originally. Endurance is everything in that task. And for police officers who have to track a criminal over great distances, I would suspect endurance would become a factor eventually in that task too.

Endurance in the animal is very important and I think the working line community is doing themselves a big disservice if they don't at least recognize it as a very important quality in their breeding programs. Otherwise, you are just breeding Rottweiler’s in shepherd coats.

I have a working line dog that I bike with and run with, he has no problems keeping up with me (not that I'm all that fast).  He also tracks in drive and is a very very motivated tracking dog.  Many of our tracks for suspects have been at a run for me to keep up with my dog.  The longest, successful tracks (ending with an apprehension) have been around 2 miles.  The dog ran and pulled the entire way at the end of his 30' line.  When we finished he wasn't even breathing hard from dragging my fast ass behind him the whole way.  Now, at the end of these tracks, he switches gears and is ready for a confrontation with a bad guy.  Some SL dogs could complete this track, if they had the desire, focus, determination and work ethic to work for an extended time in the heat.  But, how many would actively engage the guy at the end.  Endurance is a huge factor for us, just one of many factors.   Give me a dog that has the ability, hardness, temperament and drive to work and I'll get him into great shape to do the job. 

I have nothing against SL dogs, I actually have owned them.  I am not against a good well thought out breeding of SL and WL by a very skilled breeder.  It's the dog that works not the color of the dog. 

JMO FWIW,

Jim

BTW, endurance is important in SchH or any protection sports.  I'm sure you will agree that when you are gassed you don't wrestle as well as when you are fresh.  Same with the dogs as they get gassed the speed, targeting and bite diminishes

Jim,

Some "working dogs" could not engage at the end too.  Funny how genetics work that way.

Jacko,
True, but not any I would own or select.  I think the odds are greater with a working line dog than the rare SL that could do it.  Now, the German SL dogs of 20 or 25 years ago, sure they could do it.  Few and far between in what we see now, even seeing less in the working lines.  That is one reason the Dutch Shepherds and Mals are becoming so popular for Police and Military work.  

I was not trying to bash SL dogs, they are just bred with different goals in mind.  The people that select SL or WL dogs generally have different goals in mind as well.   

Jim

How much longer will the SL fans beat the drum of "better structure for endurance" before this dead issue can finally be put to rest?  Stupid is as stupid does, and endurance is as endurance does.  For those who train SchH sport work and think the dog who comes out to the field slingling spit for a mere 10 minutes before getting "put up hot" need a better perspective on the real demands of working dogs.  Likewise the dog who can "flying trot" for hours on end may be winded after a few short sprints.

This summer has been particularly hot and humid for many parts of the country, and this kind of weather separates the men from the boys and the dogs from the mutts.  Any GSD owner who thinks they've got a "properly angulated" GSD who can "go the distance" please do meet me in the steeply wooded hills of WV for some brutal trail riding on a mountain bike while your dog attempts to keep up.  Over a distance course on rough terrain my husband's Malinois can whoop my GSD any day, much to my personal embarassement.  

Real working dogs don't trot around a ring in a left circle for an hour, nor do they "show drive" for a mere 20 minutes.  The proof is in the pudding as they say... you will not impress me at the length of a leash, but rather at the end of a lengthy trail...

Yvette

Yeah,
real working dogs do not trot around the ring anymore.
There was an article in the SV magazine many years ago (in the 100th anniversary special edition I believe) that Max von Stephanitz's vision of a working dog in his time was the one who sheepherded all day and night. In between, his owner would take him, bicycle to a show with him, present him and then go back home to continue his duties. That kind of a dog needed to trot all day and von Stephanitz and his fellow fanciers were trying to figure out how to "perfect" the dog's structure to make this more effortless. Herta, Max von Stephanitz's daughter described her father's obsession to find and create a dog who could work effortlessly all day for the sheepherders in an interview with Winifred Strickland. Her father saw Horand at a small dog show and bought him, not because he was the embodiment of the dog he envisioned but he hoped that he could start to breed for this dog he envisioned. And that blows the theory out of the water that Horand was the perfect dog, darylehret.  dogbreeding.suite101.com/article.cfm/origin_of_the_german_shepherd_dog (sorry, it is the only link I could find on short notice). The founder was obsessed with genetics and studied it life long in his quest to better the breed.
The problem is that the definition of a working dog  has changed. Endurance in gaiting (trotting) is not really needed anymore since not too many dogs actually herd nowadays. At the beginning of the organization, sheepherding was the only thing these dogs were supposed to do. Military work did not really come into play until WW 1 and police work even much later.
I had put in a link earlier in this thread I believe to a homepage of a German judge and breeder (workinglines mainly but also some showlines). This man questioned the validity of the exaggerated front reach and hind thrust, very interesting. Under "Kommentare (commentary)", you will find the remarks about a "motion study" done by two professors and presented at the SV breeding seminar done in December of 2009 in Paderborn. Surprise, surprise - it was found that length of the "movement bones (the bones responsible to create movement)" were pretty much the same in workinglines and showlines. It was concluded that neither the degree of rear angulation nor the position and length of upper arm or the length and position of croup is important for the extent of reach, the one and only importance is placed on position and length of shoulder blade. For anybody fluent in German or who wishes to use an online translator, here is the link again: www.schloss-veitenstein.de/frame.htm . Unfortunately, it seems that the "copy and paste" function is disabled.  But the SV (Reinhardt Meyer) plans to lecture on this subject on September 4 during the Sieger Show. Mr. Meyer will talk about this particular study done by the University of Jena. It will be interesting to hear. I wish I could fly to the Sieger Show this year.

Come on you all I am not making this shit up; think about what you’re doing to your dogs.  You are probably ruining your dogs with all of that brutal biking and trail blazing and not even realizing it.  No wonder a stupid Malinois is outperforming a shepherd.  Dogs in general are just not made for that extreme stuff.  You have to slowly build their endurance and take it easy on them during that process.  Every one of them has their limitations.  You can’t just hop in a truck or on a bike and just do what you want to do.  I guarantee you will run them straight into the ground with that sort of attitude.  This is why I advocate you jog with them so you can feel the pain too and empathize with them.  In fact, put on some sweats with a hood and then you will really know what it’s like to wear a coat while you’re running in the middle of July and August.  You’ll figure out real quickly exactly what your animal is going through.

Of course they are going to follow you and try to keep up; they want to be with you, no matter how much it hurts, that is their nature.  Their pain tolerance is much better than ours and it takes a keen eye to recognize problems as they will hardly show any until it is too late.  And once it is too late there is no getting it back.  You will have successfully broken that animal.

Also, I’m not trying to push show lines or working lines.  I could really care less who thinks which is better than the other.  Personally, I think ALL shepherds have something to offer that is of great value.  All I’m trying to do is open your eyes to the fact that conditioning the animal is very important and should not be taken lightly.  You have to understand conditioning yourself before taking your animal in that direction.

I've stayed out of the argument because it has degenerated into the usual SL vs WL king-of-the-hill slugfest...  First off, dogs do not run fast enough for "drag coefficient" to be of any impact.  I believe one of the functions of the tail is as a counterweight for balance and maneuverability.  Second, it is not that dogs are out run by humans.  Dogs should be able to outrun humans, but humans have a more efficient heat dissipation system and dogs simply overheat and need to cool down.  That is why the AD is not a 12 mile run, but broken up in segments with a break in between each segment.  Dogs in work are seldom required to run a quarry down more than a couple of hundred yards.

There is a mechanism for gauging the minnimum standard in the GSD; it is called the buying public.  It is because of this that there us such a pissing-contest between those who advocate this or that type of dog seeking to make the dog they sell to be the recognized and popularly accepted standard of the breed.  I see nothing wrong with a $5,000.00 GSD pup, as long as there is justification to such a price, just like I see nothing wrong with the BYB $200.00 GSD pup, as long as the buyer has no unreasonable expectations of his new pup.  These segments do not compete, but there are those who would like to keep the buyers hemmed into buying their dogs or little else.  Is the WL dog very good at what it does?  Sure.  Are there SL's able to compete in dog-sport?  I''d also say "yes".  Are there extremes in breeding on both camps that render them useless for the average citizen/household?  Certainly. The question is if there is a rationale for breeding a SL and WL dog and expect to achieve a breeding that not only looks striking, but works well?  If breeders were to breed high quality WL males to high drive (with pedigree's showing achievement in SchH at high levels) show-line females, I'd venture that the dog produced would be a handsome specimen with ample capabilities.

In a nutshell, most of the WL/SL crossings we see are not from top bred sires & dams.  As has been stated in this thread, they do happen, but they are very infrequent.  The reasons for this are purely economical, but there is also the reality that breeding with so many potential variables is harder than breeding a pure SL or pure WL dog and seeking to tune up on a few traits, rather than on the dog as a whole and the spectrum of variables this entails.

Those who have seen pictures of my two pups will understand that as far as "type" and temperament goes, if given an exclusive choice between the homologated WL or the homologated SL, I'd probably lean towards the WL.  However, in the real world, there is a broad fan of variations of both types of GSD and both of my dogs are a bit away from either extreme.  Even if we were to add an "Universal" line (after the universal sieger title) to the WL and SL, there would be a segment of the market that would find such a dog closer to their desire than the others.  If there happens to be a market for it, you can bet your bottom dollar that someone will cater to it.

 Quote:  Is the WL dog very good at what it does? Sure. Are there SL's able to compete in dog-sport? I''d also say "yes".

You got any numbers to back that up, or is that just some sort of fantasy you would like to see happen ??

Quote: 
There is a mechanism for gauging the minnimum standard in the GSD; it is called the buying public.

THis is complete crap. Why have a breed club then ?? Why have a judge or a sport ??

Quote:  The question is if there is a rationale for breeding a SL and WL dog and expect to achieve a breeding that not only looks striking, but works well?

I have to be honest, I don't see GSD's as "striking", especially the showlines goobling about on their hocks. I find their apple heads to be comical. So, I don't see a rationale, but a marketing scheme. I have yet to hear anyone go on at any length about WHY they are breeding the two together, other than to add to the show lines bullshit drives, and temperament.

I was thinking about the whole Canto is a show dog 42 times 38 years ago stance. When I started in Sch, the training was pretty brutal compared to todays standards. 

If we had a magic time machine and went back to 1969/70 and took the 10 best show line/working line SCH3's how many of them would cur completely the fuck out ?? 

What would people training think of them ?

Show line talks about bettering the breed, working line talks about bettering the breed. Instead, we see anthropomorphic shit like this

Quote:  This is why I advocate you jog with them so you can feel the pain too and empathize with them. In fact, put on some sweats with a hood and then you will really know what it’s like to wear a coat while you’re running in the middle of July and August.

REALLY ?? It's like us putting on a jacket ?? REALLY ???

Did the dogs become little pussies, or did the majority of GSD people become little pussies first ? I used to run and run and run and run and run. I have never had a dog, other than 1 dysplastic bitch, not be able to keep up with me. EVER. They are usually grabbing a ball, and playing when I get back to the house. The whole idea of a structurally correct dog not keeping up with a human is goofy. Even in the heat.

I worked a 10 moth old puppy today, and it was somewhere around a hundred here. Did search work, and worked him 4 different times. Had to drag his ass off the field, out of the buildings, he wanted to stay and work. 

I personally just feel we lowered the bar way too far.

This is what Max states in his book,

"Horand embodied for the enthusiasts of that time the fulfillment of their fondest dreams. He was big for that period, between 24" and 24 1/2", even for the present day a good medium size, with powerful frame, beautiful lines, and a nobly formed head. Clean and sinewy in build, the entire dog was one live wire. His character was on a par with his exterior qualities; marvelous in his obedient fidelity to his master, and above all else, the straightforward nature of a gentleman with a boundless zest for living. Although untrained in puppy hood, nevertheless obedient to the slightest nod when at this master's side; but when left to himself, the maddest rascal, the wildest ruffian and incorrigible provoker of strife. Never idle, always on the go; well disposed to harmless people, but no cringer, mad about children and always in love. What could not have been the accomplishments of such a dog if we, at that time, had only had military or police service training? His faults were the failings of his upbringing, never of his stock. He suffered from a superfluity of unemployed energy, for he was in Heaven when someone was occupied with him and was then the most tractable of dog."