Hock walker? - Page 26

Thanks Markobytes, your posts are inspiring.

Ibrahim

Ibrahim, my only remark to those posts by you is this: dogs are not diagrams and calculations on paper. I have never used or needed anything even remotely resembling those diagrams to see and know what any dog can do. Tact is not something I've ever been known for, but truth and honesty are. Being blunt and to the point can be misconstrued as aggressiveness and that is ok by me. I've never been known to sugar coat the truth. If you were referring to my current GSL dog when you said " be kinder at least in the words and expressions us (sic) use against this (poor) show gsd..." , I will say to you that Quest has not ever received anything but deserved praise from me both in person and in any post here about him. Please clarify your statement if I have misunderstood. I think I understand what you are attempting to do putting so much effort into those diagrams. But if you ever have the opportunity to see real life dogs of different breeds, lines (show and work) in real life situations, you will see that all those lines and calculations are for naught. A person cannot change reality with diagrams, no matter how intricate or detailed they might be. If I needed a dog by my side during a "Postman" (Kevin Costner movie) world, suffice it to say it would be my WL dog, Body (pronounced Boadie, like boat), and NOT my SL dog Quest. Best regards,Joan

Joanro,

No I was not referring to your own show dog, I was talking about the show dog you always criticize in your posts, anyway all I can say is that I respect you as a person and fellow member and I respect your own choices and it is healthy to differ in points of views and have subjective and conductive debates.
That said please know that it is true we have no clubs and no kennels or show rings etc in my place, but that does not mean I have no knowledge of dogs at all or does not own show and work lines both good and poor ones from both the lines, in our culture dog is an important companion since long history. I have learned a lot from my own dogs and I'm not selling knowledge through diagrams, these angulations and proportions constitute great part of the breed standard, understanding proportions, angulation and movement is a part of understanding and valuing the GSD. You may not appreciate structure and conformation or my sketches, it's a free world. Thanks for taking the time to look at them.

Ibrahim

Thank you, Ibrahim. But I would like to set the record straight: you said I "may not appreciate structure and conformation..." That is an absolutely false statement. If you think that of me, then you have completely missed everything I have ever posted.

Ibrahim, I appreciate the effort you have made with these diagrams and I do agree with the point you are making in part, but I would argue that there is much more to correct structure than angles, length, width, etc. just like there is more to correct movement than one type of gait on an even surface. The overall dog in motion needs to be evaluated at a variety of tasks beyond gait and reach. This is the point that some members are trying to make, I think, when they post those old photos of the dogs climbing the wall (which was replaced by the easier a-frame).

It's a simple thing Joanro, I am not arguing, I showed how an increse of 5 degrees in the shoulder angle and 10 degrees in the front upper arm would affect the efficiency of the trot, the effect is 8%, doesn't that make a difference?

Please just imagine how big this difference gets if you add to it shorter pastern and deeper chest and or a shorter height at withers.

I would like to hear from others what they think of what those diagrams illustrate?
I'm not looking for personal praise on the drawings themselves nor am inventing something new, no it is all in the standard, I only made a demo.

Ibrahim

Molly, I agree

Ibrahim
Thank you but you credit me with way, way too much, I have not a millionth of Gustav's experience and knowledge, which he has always shared freely.

 I thank Gustav for what I take to be an extraordinary compliment (who do you mean Gustav when referring to my 'caustic' countrymen LOL).

Ibrahim I too was actually was a little concerned when I read your post, I thought you sounded very upset and embittered, and so unlike the Ibrahim I know. I felt that we had perhaps pushed you beyond your limits! I was very pleased to see your post above.

I do now understand where your mathematics come into play! and where mine are left lying in a ditch somewhere LOL.

I surmise that you need the ‘superior structure’ as you perceive it, to transfer directly to superior functionality (as your profession tells you that it should) yet here you have people telling you that it isn’t so and the actual real life performance of the dogs telling you that it isn’t so, and this is what I feel was and maybe still is so disturbing to you.   Functionality in terms of the anatomy of a living thing is very different to engineering based on static structures or mathematical calculations, whatever they may be.  I have a very good book on canine anatomy (general, not GSD) which is very good if somewhat heavy going, and maybe if you have a good read about canine anatomy and link up the two sciences you may see it differently (I don't know). I don’t intend this to sound disrespectful, as I know what an amazing mathematician you are, but I don't believe that this alone can create an overall picture of the dynamic function of a living organism.

In terms of the SL GSD it's beauty - or not, it's function - or not - What I would like it to be will never again come to pass, for me we had it and it has gone. What may come to pass in the future, well that depends on the eyes and minds of the breeders of tomorrow.


Edited to add: Performance being overall performance, not gaiting or simply length of stride.

Aby,

I will not claim I read all books on canine anatomy but I had the pleasure to read through some of what Linda Shaw guided me to. I don't know your back-ground on motion but there are principles of motion and principles of engineering that apply to the canine too, maybe not all but good portion do apply.
I understand that it's not a diagram or, lines and angles only when it comes to canine, it's more complicated than that. The amazing is some of us disregard the wealth of knowledge people, experienced people, not less knowledgable than Gustav and his equivalents put into the Standard of the German Shepherd.

Aby, I'm not speaking my own theories, I'm talking the standard itself. Above drawings are not an invention I made, standard talks about angulations and proportions, the experienced made books on them and some illustrations and explanations, they talked on some angles and bones proportions in general.
All I did is I drew two dogs bones, proportions and angles, one is the ideal and one has less ideal angles in the shoulder and demonstrated the difference in front reach between both. The difference is 8% from the fore arm front reach only, does that count or not? And please no one tells me about what adds to performance, I understood that, just answer the present point, PLEASE.

Ibrahim

I do not claim I know in which year nor which VA had it all, work ability, temperament and optimum structure, in regards to structure alone we need to correct rear looseness in the big population, withers, roaches and ligaments and see at what angulations we stop at, I will not make a immature assumption and say we will go back to Mutz or Quanto's structure.
In regards to temperament I am pro breeding back to the wl of as good structure as available and keep an eye on the temperament and re enhance the conformation.
If Gustav or anyone else has a better idea I am all ears, but it's not necessary that all take same approach, there could be several scenarios and then time will tell which will be more fruitful.

Ibrahim