Hock walker? - Page 25

Gustav,

I addressed my post to you and Aby as you're the (opponents), lol. I did not mean to direct all my words and criticism to you and Aby in person though, no Sir.
When I say your posts are educating, when I say I learned several things from you I am not flattering you, I state a fact. I wouldn't be happy myself to cause you sadness, just feel as my big brother and if and when you tell me to (shut up) I will. 
I would hate myself if Aby took it the way you did too, I cherish her and have true respect for her, no matter what we may differ, her recent posts reflect deep knowledge I never knew before, I mean I know she's knowledgable but the latest posts just .....wow......if I could get all that out of her, and assuming all I said is nonsense, I did good by causing all that knowledge to spell out of her. Thanks blitzen for clearing up my message, you are a darling.

I will post the drawings shortly

Ibrahim

Ibrahim, it would be a good thing if you could come to the US and with Gustav as your guide, actually see first hand the gsd in the contrasting venues. At the risk of being presumptuous, you probably think I am one those you mentioned disliking the show line and thinking the WL is perfect. But the fact of the matter is, I own both. granted, only one GSL and several WL. The GSL is a very nice dog that I raised from a puppy, showed him in two National Sieger shows where he placed in the middle of the pack. Not too bad for the only shows he ever went to. In between those two Sieger shows, I trained him and put a schH 1 on him. He was sold to me as " pet quality". The reason I'm telling the back ground on this dog, is so that you can understand my point of reference when I compare the two lines. This is only one GSL that I own currently, true, but since his breeder ( a VERY well known, influential breeder in Illinois) sold him as " pet quality", she did not have the expectations for him that I attained with him. During the same time I raised and trained him, I also raised and trained five of my WL dogs. This was the first time I ever was involved in training or titling schH dogs. I titled concurrently two of my WL dogs, a Very strong male and an over the top drives female. The WL male I put schH 1 title on first by the time he reached his second birthday. By the time I had the SL male ready for his sch I, I already put Sch 1on my female,then schII on her the same day I put schH 1 on him.. From my perspective, the SL male is a VERY nice dog. Comparing the training and titling, the approach in training I needed to succeed with him was much different than for any of the WL dogs. He is a good dog for letting me know when some one arrives here( we have eighty five acres in the hill country with lots of woods.) I don't worry about him "taking care of intruders," but at the same time, I know that he is not capable of taking care of real intruders who would be a real threat. He is eight years old now, as are some of my original WL dogs. His health is not good as he has rectal fistulas and my WL dogs are in excellent health. When I asked my vet what caused his problem, his simple answer was " he's a show dog, it's the conformation " , with such a low tail set and therefore ventilation is limited... That was my vet's explanation, not mine... So, please, I'm not looking for fight about this subject. in conclusion, Ibrahim, I will say that the two lines are so different that they are essentially two DIFFERENT breeds. When comparing the SL with the WL, they are sooo different structurally and in temperament, that they only resemble each other in prick ears. I raised a GSL puppy seventeen years ago. This current SL dog carries some of the same blood lines WAAY back in his pedigree that were up close in my dog born seventeen years ago. Evidently those blood lines are sooo far back in this dog as to not have any influence, because that older dog was essentially the same in character and structure as my current WLs. He was the dog that cemented my love for the gsd. I could go on about his qualities, virtues, and exemplary character but most on here would think they were exaggerations:) suffice it to say he was a dog many would consider a dog of a life time. However, I am fortunate that I have several WL dogs that any one of them would fit the mold of my old " Colonel". I wish you the best in your search for the truth, Ibrahim.

Ibrahim has picked up on some of the bitterness that does exist in this community. After having owned GSDs for over 25 years, I wanted to get involved in Schutzhund. I will try to give the short version here. Not knowing there was a difference in the lines I purchased a WGSL from a breeder with a strong background in working dogs. The breeder picked a pup for me that was a good candidate for schutzhund. The breeder taught me tracking and obedience but sent me to seminars so I could expand my knowledge. I was sent to a well known schutzhund competitor to give my pup a good foundation for bite work. While attending these seminars a lot of dedicated schutzhund people would inquire about my dogs pedigree and would make the comment " you have a good dog".  The first time I came out to a schutzhund club I was told "your dog is not a German Shepherd, he is a show dog". I have had lots of similar comments made to me, generally from people who have not titled a dog and before they see my dog work. Since then I have seen many people interested in schutzhund bring their show line GSDs out after the dog is a year old and with no foundation work at all. They are told they have the wrong dog and leave never to come back to schutzhund. I know trainers do not want to waste their time teaching someone that is not serious, but could the person be encouraged to be involved in the tracking or obedience? Once they are around and get to learn the next dog might be a working line. I have seen also at seminars people who have brought pet show lines and are serious about the obedience be laughed at and have their dog's conformation critiqued by working line owners. I have never, and have never seen show people critique a working line except to compliment it sincerely. There is a reason that the schutzhund community is small, It could be much larger with a little tolerance. Again I don't think people realize what they are doing, frustration with the show organizations causes them to to lash out in redirected aggression. I have not, however seen this attitude displayed by the continental Europeans.    

Joanro, 

To tell the truth, this is one rare post from you I read with interest and pleasure from the 1st word till the last one, and I have nothing against you at all but your posts in general are agressive against the show line GSD, you may draw attention from those who share your stand to varying extent but believe me you don't draw the same from the opposite side, if you be softer at least in the words and expressions you use against this (poor) show GSD maybe you could get your message through better, hope I don't cause sadness to you Joanro, lol.
One good thing about Gustav, he listens, it is good for all of us to learn this virtue from him, I have no hard feelings Joanro and please listen to what I shall post in few minutes and let your mind and heart say what they think.

Ibrahim

Nice post joanro, I too would like to see Ibrahim get some practical help, he is a pioneer and a valuable asset to this community.

This is an ideal GSD as per the standard, height at withers 65 cms, chest depth at 45% of total height, deducting 2 cms from top withers to mid point of top shoulder blade then we have from that point to elbow joint where the front upper arm rests in the cavity 27.25 cms.
Shoulder angle 45 degrees, shoulder blade length 16.55 cms, front upper arm angle is 53 degrees, front upper arm length is 19.59 cms.
Pastern is 25% of arm length and set at ideal 22 degrees. Length of pastern is 9.66 cms and length from pastern joint to elbow is 27.81 cms.

This is the front fore reach of the above dog in a trot, not flying trot. The software calculates this reach 43.2 cms.

This is another dog of same height and depth of chest, pastern proportion and angle but of bigger shoulder and front upper arm angles, and mind you this shoulder is very common and not the worst available.

The software calculates its front fore reach to be 39.57 cms.

Difference in fore front reach between both the dogs is 3.5 cms, which represents 8% decrease in the 2nd dog from reach of 1st dog.
Supposing same difference is there in under reach, then that makes a difference of 7 cms in each full trot.

Now if both dogs in a certain daily work make 5000 trots then second one will lag 350 meters in addition to added fatigue.

Now can you say proper conformation does not ad to performance and efficiency?

Ibrahim