workingline best new stud - Page 25

Any thing for those looking for a handout or a pat on the back, but you do the second on your own so well and so often. Molly I,ll give you and P.T Barnum credit. 

Asko may or may not be a made dog, I've never paid him much mind, but perhaps hasn't been prepotent enough to do a lot without the support of Brawnson, Aly, Bandit & Arek, Troll-K in the pedigrees of those dogs mentioned.  In such case, the dam is certainly important.

Ahh  again, sort of a genetics discussion. 

Made dogs? lots of them and we have to applaud the trainer!  Isn't that their job, train the dog to their best ability? 

Everyone is talking as though the dog that wins is the best dog in production.  Let's see, racing (speed) is 25% heritable.  Can we measure obedience?  We can measure ability to scent and nerve.  FH titled dogs have a tendency to produce FH titled dogs.  Prey and grip can be highly influenced for better or worse. 

Stormfront's Brawnson did not produce himself  very well.  But it was not from Arko Honest who was simply amazing.    Dick Bethme, Agbar Bethme both great dogs. 

N
www.westwoodkennels.com



 

 

 Quote: 
Your comment only shows your lack and understanding of genetics.

Ok, let me ask you something, and if we were standing in front of each other, you would not see it as ********.

How many litters have you bred ? How many other than molly and daryl have bred more than 20 litters ? This is not a ********** question, but it helps differentiate between those with theory and those with experience.

I am not a GSD guy really. I like Mals. If you look at the really outstanding dogs, they are produced by breeders that would be considered puppy millers. They do not title their females. They do just about everything wrong according to many many people here, and produce better dogs than probably every one of us have ever owned.

I would like you to really think about that. Do each and every one of you really know what a dog is, or do you know what the training is ? I am not being a ****, I think that to myself every time I look at a dog. Is it the dog or the training that I like ?

And then there is breeding. How am I supposed to know if I am right without actually giving it a shot ? How do I know what the recessives are if I do not inbreed to find out ? How do I make my own line of dogs without this information ? What if I wait till a dog is 6 or 7 before I breed the dog, as I waited until I titled and competed the dog. If he is average producer, so what, but I have known dogs that after 6 couldn't figure out how to breed. What then ? What if he was a really great producer ? 

So many myths are out there. 

Quote: There have been 2 negative comments on Asko in this thread. About him being a made dog. I'm curious as to the source of this information? Having spoken with many of the helpers that actually worked this dog, in trial and training. As well as someone who saw him win the BSP and was right next to the dog. None of these people have ever mentioned this.

There are a lot of politics out there. When I say the dog looks like a made dog to me, and I do not like the dog, it is not the word of God. It is my opinion of the dog. My suggestion is to do what I do in this aspect of what people say about a dog. Go and look at the dog. Make your own opinion based on what you like in a dog. Screw what I say, or what a helper is going to say, or what anyone is going to say. If you want to use that dog, or offspring, then do it. Don't listen to anyone when it comes to YOUR breeding goals and ideas.

That is what I would change about internet boards. I could be dead on about the dog, or wrong as they come, but it is not a dog that I want in my breeding program. 

When it comes to certain dogs, I think there are some really really fancy trainers out there that really can polish a turd. I have seen them do it. I saw the dog when the dog was young, and then saw the dog ( not asko but in general ) and the dog looks amazing. I still see turd. LOL

Quote: You can,t prove a TOP stud without breeding to top females...Is in direct correlation to the topic.

Unless of course you breed to a bitch that is average, and he proves otherwise. That is a stud dog. Just because a dog produces pups, does not prove that he is a stud dog to me.

The other thing is if you cannot look at a dog/bitch and see what they are without titles or this or that, then what good is your ability to breed ? Look at all the people that have titles dogs and breed them and produce nothing. That happens as well. 

Quote: Mike Suttle's successes are a lot of luck. His failures to produce on some are lack of knowledge. and I say those things and still say Mike Suttle is a pretty darn smart guy so no harm but praise here as I don't tell just anyone that they are smart. Just using him today as an example - hope he doesn't mind.

 Sorry, went too long, got cut off

I don't think that you can classify breeding as always luck. I am sure that Gerben has a big hand in what he buys and what he breeds. It is also a lot different breeding dogs that are bred as tightly as some of those dogs are. that is a big difference. Most GSD's are not linebred, most are outcrosses. You might find something back in the 5th gen, but how often do you really see a GSD heavily linebred ? I know it happens, but on the whole, it is pretty rare.

The other thing here in the states is that we love to argue things. I love to argue things. People actually give up the goods when you press them. Or they had nothing you wanted, and that shows as well. LOL I know people that will not breed their dog to so and so because bla bla bla. What is that ? Is it about the breed, or is it about someone taking what someone else said and getting all butthurt about it ?

I am not going to argue with "jim" about his breeding program if he wants to use my dog. It is not my business, and maybe he is right about the bitch and I am wrong. Stop arguing and breed the dang dog. : )

Quote: If more care was taken in choosing the breed able females it would only increase the chances of outstanding the breeding pair.

Do you really think that people out there think their female that they are breeding sucks ? I might think the bitch sucks, you might think the bitch sucks, but it is their breeding program. Eventually they either figure it out, or they don't. I think that some people only look as far as the next litter. Some people will breed a bitch to see if she produces. Just because the bitch is on a trial field doesn't mean she is going to make good pups. Again, why wait till the bitch is 4 or 5 to find out if she is a good producer ?

I bred Esko to Kira to find out what they will produce. No amount of guessing is going to tell me what I need to know. No title is going to tell me what I need to know. I think more people need to got over themselves and take that risk and then evaluate what they thought they knew, and what actually happened. I have notes on what I think will come out of the breeding. I will compare them to what actually happens. What drives me is wanting to know.

So, who has bred 20 litters or more on this thread ??

 Quote: If Asko was MADE.. and you claim that MADE dogs do not produce.


SG Lion Vom Bellington

Kway vom Posthorn

SG1 Stuka vom Enckhausen

Mücke vom Haus Vortkamp


Those are just a few here in the US, many more in Germany.

Again, you see what you want to see, and I see what I want to see. It is a matter of opinion. What did the littermates of these dogs do ? Who was the female, and what did she produce before ? Are you looking at training, or the dog ? Are you really seeing power, or a lot of spinning the dog up in training ?

Quote:  "It is my opinion of the dog. My suggestion is to do what I do in this aspect of what people say about a dog. Go and look at the dog. Make your own opinion based on what you like in a dog. Screw what I say, or what a helper is going to say, or what anyone is going to say. If you want to use that dog, or offspring, then do it. Don't listen to anyone when it comes to YOUR breeding goals and ideas."

On this one I couldn't agree more.

I've been able to see a number of Asko offspring work and train. The ones I've seen didn't need a lot to bring out their natural insticts.  Unfortunately Asko was in Germany and I have yet to make it over there. So you have to go with the best info. you can on that instence. So yeah I will go with the oppinions of those with many years experience in the dogs who have actually seen the dog with there own eyes. Rather than someone thousands of miles away who watch a video clip of said dog.

 Quote:  you stop cussing and flailing your arms around

I always cuss, and I never flail my arms around. I notice a direct correlation between people that have nothing to offer, and their amount of "offensiveness" to cursing. LOL 

You are not alone, and probably could give ********** about my cursing. However, I am always laughing at the others that have decided that their value to a thread is pretty much always telling someone that they curse to much. Hilarious.

TOS # 9.  Please keep your language clean and decent.

 Quote:  Rather than someone thousands of miles away who watch a video clip of said dog.

Or, actually saw the dog, and didn't like him. Nice try at a shot at me though. No need to get emotional if I do not like the same dog you do. Who cares ?

Jeff, Buddy, wasn't making a shot at anyone. I'm not the least bit emotional. Perhaps if you weren't getting emotional on all your threads you wouldn't be thinking everyones after you.

As I stated I don't have any Asko blood in my dogs. Yes I liked the offspring I have personally seen and wouldn't mind him in the ped of a dog of mine.  I was just commenting on you saying to go look at the dog in question when you can. I agree. Unfortunately I never did make it over there to see him in person. So I would rather talk to those I know, that have a good eye for a dog, who have seen a dog personally than those of us who can only see the dog on video clips.

Also I would be very interested in hearing about when you saw him and hear your take on it. Of course you should PM me on this one, as I don't want to hi-jack this thread anymore than I already have.

Rick