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by Keith Grossman on 04 June 2013 - 19:06
"My previous experience with judging models (not IPO) is that most judging models are points accrued as I believe the IPO standard is so constructed."
And you would be wrong much in the same way you were when you said that, "style," should not influence the outcome albeit I would change the word, "style," to, "attitude," "commitment," or any of several other adjectives that indicate that the dog wants to be there, is happy doing what he/she is there for and is naturally predisposed to that type of work. I am not criticizing you; I am suggesting that you go to some trials and watch the dogs work. You will immediately notice a very large difference between the dogs for whom the work comes naturally and those for whom it does not. You can actually see it at any half way decent club on any given weekend as well.
And you would be wrong much in the same way you were when you said that, "style," should not influence the outcome albeit I would change the word, "style," to, "attitude," "commitment," or any of several other adjectives that indicate that the dog wants to be there, is happy doing what he/she is there for and is naturally predisposed to that type of work. I am not criticizing you; I am suggesting that you go to some trials and watch the dogs work. You will immediately notice a very large difference between the dogs for whom the work comes naturally and those for whom it does not. You can actually see it at any half way decent club on any given weekend as well.
by wallacepayne on 04 June 2013 - 19:06
Steve1 gave my friend 87pts I'm not sure if he is a judge or not and I know I'm not. But, after it was over my friend asked me what I thought I told him 89 or 90 max! So, Steve1 and I were not that far off. If you do the math on all of the judging and look at the videos that's available you will see that the truth of the scoring was in the averages. Dwight got 96 from West and 83 from Caputo=179=89.5
So the average was not that much of a difference of Steve1 87 or my 89 or 90.
I don't think they were cheating for one side or the other, I just think they were way off all weekend long and mostly in protection. It's a shame that we have to have one judge on the High extreme and the other on the low extreme to get the correct score in the middle.
So the average was not that much of a difference of Steve1 87 or my 89 or 90.
I don't think they were cheating for one side or the other, I just think they were way off all weekend long and mostly in protection. It's a shame that we have to have one judge on the High extreme and the other on the low extreme to get the correct score in the middle.
by Schznd on 04 June 2013 - 20:06
"If you also deduct points for the dog consistently failing to return to the starting heeling position when told, you'll be very close to the 83 point score that he was given."
You are correct. Also the back transport is a guarding exercise, not a heeling exercise, if the dog looks back to the handler/does not pay attention/forging it is the same as judging the silent guard and would be sufficient or insufficient depending on the degree. You need to start and end each exercise with the basic, transport and side transport. These are all point deductions.
You are correct. Also the back transport is a guarding exercise, not a heeling exercise, if the dog looks back to the handler/does not pay attention/forging it is the same as judging the silent guard and would be sufficient or insufficient depending on the degree. You need to start and end each exercise with the basic, transport and side transport. These are all point deductions.
by bubbabooboo on 04 June 2013 - 21:06
Anyone who can read knows that the IPO system does not start with everyone having a score of 100 .. that is idiotic thinking. The IPO system is points earned by meeting the standard. Once you meet the standard you earn all points. The dog that bites with a full and firm grip is awarded as many points as the dog that bites the helpers arm into two pieces. Mike West gives higher scores because he awards points for task performed according to the standard. If every dog fully meets the standard and gets 100 points that is just fine so long as he adheres to the standard or exceeds it. Steve1 uses terms like the bite could be harder .. harder than what?? If the bite meets the IPO standard it is 100% of points for that task and there are no style points or style deductions. If it is not in the standard for evaluating IPO then it is ignored. If the dog hops around the field on one foot and sings Dixie no more points than a normal heel according to the IPO standard. In all models of judging the participant begins with 0 and earns points up to 100%. Caputo was deducting Mickey Mouse points and awarding style points for some of his favorite performances. That is why Caputo scored the WDA participants lower than West because he could always find another deduction if he didn't follow the IPO standard by giving points for tasks performed but instead deducted for faults he conjured up. Two performances in IPO do not need to look the same or be clean to get the same points. A dunk in basketball is two points and so is a layup and so is an underhand two hand set shot .. all two points .. no extra points for showmanship. If you look at West's scores in 2012 vs 2013 he was the same judge. Mike West knows the IPO standard and he follows it even if it is boring and simple to do. Caputo invented a new system with style points like it could have been harder, or cleaner, or louder, or faster. That is not how the IPO system works .. the standard is the standard and harder, faster, cleaner or louder get no more points than the IPO standard at a club trial or at a national trial. The dog and handler are rewarded for meeting the standard and nothing more. If USCA wants to create a new IPO standard and call it USCA IPO have at it but the rest of the world must follow the standard as written.
by beetree on 04 June 2013 - 21:06
Bubba, I never read the part you are referring to. I bet it is rather like everything else you write and you aren't seeing the whole picture. Maybe post the part you are referring to. I bet you can have your rant and have points deducted and still end up at the same point. Think of it as an automatic 100 pts when you do pass, as the first step. Picture in your head a number line. Start at zero, add your 1oo pts for any form of completion, and then allow for the Judges subjective deductions. That works within your theory, so you can relax and know you are very smart. Nice to know you have expertise in some areas. You should learn to quit when you are ahead.
by Gusmanda on 04 June 2013 - 22:06
Bubba, talk to a couple of judges about how they go about the points. I think you'll find most DO start with 100 and deduct as they see errors. I've been around a couple of trials where the judges (both European and Latin American) do explain where points where lost, and participants do end up getting 100 minus whatever deductions the judges explained to them. Regardless of how it is explained in the pdf, this seems to be how it is done de facto.
by Markobytes on 04 June 2013 - 23:06
Can we vote someone off the island?
by zdog on 04 June 2013 - 23:06
11 pages, 12? just STFU already. If you haven't been able to make your point by now, you're not going to
by steve1 on 05 June 2013 - 05:06
Wallace
No i said i have not judged and i certainly am not one. just that when i go to any trial i mark the dogs performances and it is only for my own interest just to see how close i get to the Judges scoring, and being lucky to see so many trials you hopefully learn a little which will help you with your own dog training
Steve1
No i said i have not judged and i certainly am not one. just that when i go to any trial i mark the dogs performances and it is only for my own interest just to see how close i get to the Judges scoring, and being lucky to see so many trials you hopefully learn a little which will help you with your own dog training
Steve1
by steve1 on 05 June 2013 - 06:06
bubbabooboo
You say Bite harder than what; It is difficult to explain what i mean in words if you were with me at a trial i could then tell you and show you what i am talking about. Recently my female went and passed her Keuring, there were about 50 plus dogs that day doing the same thing all hoping to get a keuring done on there dogs
There were WL and SL dogs; Now i do not want to start an arguement and what i say is how it is nothing nasty or anything mean;t by the following
Firstly we take the SL dog on the biting bit, There real job is in the show ring that is where these dogs shine against the WL; But i am afraid when it comes down to the speed of attack and the power of the bite for instance on the long attack; in 98 times out of a 100 it just is not the same as the really good WL; For a start they do not really get a full grip meaning the front teeth only grip there are points lost for that, in fact some dogs were that slow and there bite so soft i could have put in a stronger bite with more power by sucking the sleeve myself. that is not meant to be funny or take the piss out of any dog it is fact in front of your eyes to see.
A really good WL will go flat out no checking on reaching the helper just whack onto the sleeve full mouthful, My female hits so that every time she hits you hear it WHACK as she goes in no messing about or checking on approach to the helper followed many times by an expletive from the helper many of which make you smile and that is how it should be.
.But you need to see both to know what i am talking about. It is no good just doing an exercise; it must be fast strong and with meaning and precision, Sorry if you still disagree but that is fact.
Now i do not want to keep harping on about my own female who at this time is only IPO1; Now the dog is easily capable of getting her IPO2 and 3 grades and has been for some time now? But GETTING grades is no good to me unless you are getting top marks near the 100 points. i do not want her to just pass in the phases, i want her to pass with Excellent or at the least SG on all three phases; and now she is coming very close to that if she does on the trial as she is on the work field because if she cannot get these high scores in her work and in forth coming trials then my ambitions of getting her to the Belgian Championship and beyond in 2014 is a lost cause, perhaps now you will understand what i am getting at and what some of the other guys on here have also said. If you do not agree and try and make it something else then there is no where to go, because the above is the truth and whatever you say or think it will stand in the future as it has done so in the past
.I take this sport very seriously, it is a lot of work involved but saying that very nice and rewarding work when it finally comes together
Then you mention the scoring of 100 points and how it is done, all phases are scored out of a max 100 points
Let us take the Obedience phase B
you get points out of 10 for the long down?
you get points out of 10 for the heeling.
you get points out of 10 for the Sit
you get points out of 10 for the down
you get points out of 10 for the Staan
you get points out of 10 for the Sendaway
you get 40 points for the Apport
I have explained the sharpness of sitting and the down and the Staan etc to you in another post; with the Apport it is broken down as such
Apport on Ground the dog must stay close at sit to the handlers side with out movement until given the signal to go, it should move quickly over the ground retrieve the block and sit in a calm still manner in front of the handler and with head up present the block to the handler , no chewing or moving of the head, the handler takes the block and takes it to his right side then on command of the judge tells the dog to return to heeling postition and sit quickly and in the right postition to the leg of handler . this applies to the two parts below as well to save writing it. The block weight for this excercise is 2000 grams in weight. points given out of 10
Hurdle the dog must stay at the leg of the handler in a calm way no moving forwards or such like? it must clear the hurdle fully both ways after retrieving the block which weighs 650 grams? it must finish the excercise close to the handler and present the block thus head up still and not chewing on the block, otherwise points are deducted depending on how the dog is doing it? the handler asks the Dog once to release the block and the handler does not or should not have to reach out full arm lenght if the dog has returned and sat in the correct postition points given out of 15
A frame as above excercise points given out of 15
So Bubbabooboo thats about all i can tell you that is the way it is worked i will add from an 8 week old puppy to IPO 3 it is not possible to calculate the time in hours not that we do it runs into years of training every day of the week any weather. we do it because we love it and it is good we meet different people and spend hours enjoying watching trials above all there is nothing better to me than to have a dog who is very well trained and obediient? it is a pleasure to own such a happy contented animal, and believe me they will do anything for you such is the bond you have created
Now for the Guys who may not be aware the Points system of a PASS score in phases A and B is 70 points, to Pass Phase C Protection the Pass is a minimum of 80 points
One final thing the only video i want to look at is the one of Krista Wades someone must know if there is one taken
Steve1
You say Bite harder than what; It is difficult to explain what i mean in words if you were with me at a trial i could then tell you and show you what i am talking about. Recently my female went and passed her Keuring, there were about 50 plus dogs that day doing the same thing all hoping to get a keuring done on there dogs
There were WL and SL dogs; Now i do not want to start an arguement and what i say is how it is nothing nasty or anything mean;t by the following
Firstly we take the SL dog on the biting bit, There real job is in the show ring that is where these dogs shine against the WL; But i am afraid when it comes down to the speed of attack and the power of the bite for instance on the long attack; in 98 times out of a 100 it just is not the same as the really good WL; For a start they do not really get a full grip meaning the front teeth only grip there are points lost for that, in fact some dogs were that slow and there bite so soft i could have put in a stronger bite with more power by sucking the sleeve myself. that is not meant to be funny or take the piss out of any dog it is fact in front of your eyes to see.
A really good WL will go flat out no checking on reaching the helper just whack onto the sleeve full mouthful, My female hits so that every time she hits you hear it WHACK as she goes in no messing about or checking on approach to the helper followed many times by an expletive from the helper many of which make you smile and that is how it should be.
.But you need to see both to know what i am talking about. It is no good just doing an exercise; it must be fast strong and with meaning and precision, Sorry if you still disagree but that is fact.
Now i do not want to keep harping on about my own female who at this time is only IPO1; Now the dog is easily capable of getting her IPO2 and 3 grades and has been for some time now? But GETTING grades is no good to me unless you are getting top marks near the 100 points. i do not want her to just pass in the phases, i want her to pass with Excellent or at the least SG on all three phases; and now she is coming very close to that if she does on the trial as she is on the work field because if she cannot get these high scores in her work and in forth coming trials then my ambitions of getting her to the Belgian Championship and beyond in 2014 is a lost cause, perhaps now you will understand what i am getting at and what some of the other guys on here have also said. If you do not agree and try and make it something else then there is no where to go, because the above is the truth and whatever you say or think it will stand in the future as it has done so in the past
.I take this sport very seriously, it is a lot of work involved but saying that very nice and rewarding work when it finally comes together
Then you mention the scoring of 100 points and how it is done, all phases are scored out of a max 100 points
Let us take the Obedience phase B
you get points out of 10 for the long down?
you get points out of 10 for the heeling.
you get points out of 10 for the Sit
you get points out of 10 for the down
you get points out of 10 for the Staan
you get points out of 10 for the Sendaway
you get 40 points for the Apport
I have explained the sharpness of sitting and the down and the Staan etc to you in another post; with the Apport it is broken down as such
Apport on Ground the dog must stay close at sit to the handlers side with out movement until given the signal to go, it should move quickly over the ground retrieve the block and sit in a calm still manner in front of the handler and with head up present the block to the handler , no chewing or moving of the head, the handler takes the block and takes it to his right side then on command of the judge tells the dog to return to heeling postition and sit quickly and in the right postition to the leg of handler . this applies to the two parts below as well to save writing it. The block weight for this excercise is 2000 grams in weight. points given out of 10
Hurdle the dog must stay at the leg of the handler in a calm way no moving forwards or such like? it must clear the hurdle fully both ways after retrieving the block which weighs 650 grams? it must finish the excercise close to the handler and present the block thus head up still and not chewing on the block, otherwise points are deducted depending on how the dog is doing it? the handler asks the Dog once to release the block and the handler does not or should not have to reach out full arm lenght if the dog has returned and sat in the correct postition points given out of 15
A frame as above excercise points given out of 15
So Bubbabooboo thats about all i can tell you that is the way it is worked i will add from an 8 week old puppy to IPO 3 it is not possible to calculate the time in hours not that we do it runs into years of training every day of the week any weather. we do it because we love it and it is good we meet different people and spend hours enjoying watching trials above all there is nothing better to me than to have a dog who is very well trained and obediient? it is a pleasure to own such a happy contented animal, and believe me they will do anything for you such is the bond you have created
Now for the Guys who may not be aware the Points system of a PASS score in phases A and B is 70 points, to Pass Phase C Protection the Pass is a minimum of 80 points
One final thing the only video i want to look at is the one of Krista Wades someone must know if there is one taken
Steve1
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