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by Keith Grossman on 04 June 2013 - 16:06
If you also deduct points for the dog consistently failing to return to the starting heeling position when told, you'll be very close to the 83 point score that he was given.
by bubbabooboo on 04 June 2013 - 17:06
Thanks steve1 again some good discussion of scoring and why so scored. I haven't found any of Krista Wade or O'Kane .. but I will continue looking.
by djc on 04 June 2013 - 17:06
I am just now reading this thread... ahh yes nothing better to do at the moment... lol
But before I finish....
Can I make one comment on something on the first page? Hopefully I'm not repeating someone else. If I am I'm so sorry!
BUT...
The BSP is ONLY for Germany!!! NOT the World!!! The dog HAS to be owned/co-owned by a GERMAN citizen. So to compare that to the WUSV is moot! The WUSV is for GSDs from all countries. AND someone made the point that the BSP winner is rarely top dog at the WUSV.
back to the recreational reading...
Debby
But before I finish....
Can I make one comment on something on the first page? Hopefully I'm not repeating someone else. If I am I'm so sorry!
BUT...
The BSP is ONLY for Germany!!! NOT the World!!! The dog HAS to be owned/co-owned by a GERMAN citizen. So to compare that to the WUSV is moot! The WUSV is for GSDs from all countries. AND someone made the point that the BSP winner is rarely top dog at the WUSV.
back to the recreational reading...
Debby
by bubbabooboo on 04 June 2013 - 17:06
While the BSP is for the Germans only it is also the biggest and best quality competition in the World. The one team per country format of the WUSV vastly under represents the talents and quality of the German bred GSD .. and in fact most of the dogs at the WUSV will have German SV pedigrees or there parents did. The Czechs and the Benelux GSD are probably next in quantity and quality of the home grown GSD now that the DDR GSD are part of Germany again. The USA bred GSD does not appear on the map as participants of the WUSV. Please check the list of those selected for the USA WUSV team in any year and the vast majority will be of German breeding and import or Czech import.
by steve1 on 04 June 2013 - 18:06
bubbabooboo
It does not matter if the dog turns around and returns to the handler or if indeed it back peddles, It is the reaction and speed reflexes of the dog that counts when given the first command by the handler; and this is the crux of the matter. in all excercises from the bite to the sit it has to be fast and clean, For instance you tell a dog to sit its rear end must plant it self on the ground right at that instance not half heartedly points are gone; I know with my female she started off not bad but certainly not fast enough at the sit, it took many 100,s of goes to get it right; Sit means sit hardly before you have finished saying it, it means that fast, and with the down just the same plus the Stan no twitch at all; not easy for a dog. fortunatly for me my female is tops with the Stan just like a statue every time. it is getting the dog to listen to the handler but sometimes the wind can be blowing in a certain way that it carries the sound of the handlers voice away so it is not always the fault of the dog. not many think about that.One other thing when a dog it at the sit or down it should focus its gaze on the handler a lot of dogs look around whist the handler is still in motion going to his spot, Point or points will be taken off depending on how the judge sees it
Steve1
It does not matter if the dog turns around and returns to the handler or if indeed it back peddles, It is the reaction and speed reflexes of the dog that counts when given the first command by the handler; and this is the crux of the matter. in all excercises from the bite to the sit it has to be fast and clean, For instance you tell a dog to sit its rear end must plant it self on the ground right at that instance not half heartedly points are gone; I know with my female she started off not bad but certainly not fast enough at the sit, it took many 100,s of goes to get it right; Sit means sit hardly before you have finished saying it, it means that fast, and with the down just the same plus the Stan no twitch at all; not easy for a dog. fortunatly for me my female is tops with the Stan just like a statue every time. it is getting the dog to listen to the handler but sometimes the wind can be blowing in a certain way that it carries the sound of the handlers voice away so it is not always the fault of the dog. not many think about that.One other thing when a dog it at the sit or down it should focus its gaze on the handler a lot of dogs look around whist the handler is still in motion going to his spot, Point or points will be taken off depending on how the judge sees it
Steve1
by steve1 on 04 June 2013 - 18:06
Just for interest i looked at the protection of a guy called Chris, and these were my marks
Running the blinds Okay
On the Escape The dog did not seem to bite with full power it looked a trifle weak and its Guarding could have been more intense. Heeling was good When the dog and helper arrived to the Judge, the Dogs focus was not on the Helper when at sit it was looking elsewhere So overall 3 points lost
Long Attack the run was fair and the heeling to the spot good however again the bite lacked power and the dog regripped the sleeve a second before being told to release Lost 2 points
Points given 95 points
Steve1
Running the blinds Okay
On the Escape The dog did not seem to bite with full power it looked a trifle weak and its Guarding could have been more intense. Heeling was good When the dog and helper arrived to the Judge, the Dogs focus was not on the Helper when at sit it was looking elsewhere So overall 3 points lost
Long Attack the run was fair and the heeling to the spot good however again the bite lacked power and the dog regripped the sleeve a second before being told to release Lost 2 points
Points given 95 points
Steve1
by bubbabooboo on 04 June 2013 - 18:06
Indeed .. My previous experience with judging models (not IPO) is that most judging models are points accrued as I believe the IPO standard is so constructed. Many judges start to make minor infractions into major deductions when they judge on a points deducted system. My understanding is that if the dog does the task according to the IPO standard (not the judges personal standard) the task receives maximum points and as the dog moves to the next task those earned points are no longer in play .. they belong to the dog and handler. I have seen some judges (in other fields of judging not IPO) deduct more points from a partial performance than possible while if they say what was done correctly they would instead of deducting 7 points from 10 for half right they give 5 for half right which is appropriate. The speed of movement of the handler and dog seems to be important but what is normal?? Normal is then 100% credit and if the dog is faster than normal no extra points can be given. When the standard is met maximum points awarded as the standard is the same at a club trial or a international trial .. the standard remains the same day in and day out. When judges change the standard based on the situation then the results become useless for comparisons. I worked for many years (20+) as a biological researcher and evaluating research trials was part of my work. I saw many examples of researchers and evaluators whose work was meaningless because they skewed their results by giving always low scores and in effect deducting too much for minor defects while failing to award points for the important work accomplished. Thus the handlers body posture or speed of movement seems to me to be out of play for deductions and perhaps the word clean is too vague for a numerical evaluation??
by bubbabooboo on 04 June 2013 - 18:06
Chris received a 94 from Caputo and a 98 from West .. good work and thanks!!
by Mystere on 04 June 2013 - 18:06
Maybe that is the problem. In trial, we all begin with 100 points in each phase and, through the judging process, we LOSE points. It is not points accrued; it is precisely the opposite: points lost. Much involves subjectivity by the judge. Everyone knows the "hydraulic sit" when presented. But, the "could be faster " sit/down/recall, etc., is often subjective.
Speed always counts: slow or too fast 9i.e.e forging) about turns; slow sits/downs/recalls; fast or slow retrieves; fast or slow releases in the retrieves; fast or slow voraus; fast or slow down on voraus; fast or slow blind search; fast or slow heeling from the blind in H & B; fast or slow (DG??) escape; fast or slow long bite; fast or slow outs all through protection; fast or slow attack on the handler; speed in tracking. The list goes on and on.
Speed always counts: slow or too fast 9i.e.e forging) about turns; slow sits/downs/recalls; fast or slow retrieves; fast or slow releases in the retrieves; fast or slow voraus; fast or slow down on voraus; fast or slow blind search; fast or slow heeling from the blind in H & B; fast or slow (DG??) escape; fast or slow long bite; fast or slow outs all through protection; fast or slow attack on the handler; speed in tracking. The list goes on and on.
by steve1 on 04 June 2013 - 19:06
Bubbabooboo
It is time i went to bed so this is my last post today
Let me say this; If you walk with the dog at you side as if you do not have a care in the world then you will lose points; In IPO it is not only the dog but the handler as well up to a point; The handler must conduct there presence on the work field in a professional manner. this means you do not look down at you dog; you stand tall even if like me you are not so tall, you stand up right but relaxed. you walk along with authority . Now if you slouch or fall along then your dog will pick up on this and act accordingly. if you stand up extrud confidence and Power so to speak then your dog will react again to your body posture; Meaning it is looking at you as No1 and will work the same way
But saying all this does it not look better than slouching along, Animals pick up on the moods of the handler not sometimes but every time
If for instance i was not feeling up to the mark or i was not in a very good mood, i would never take the dog out to train, That session would be forgot about it does not happen often but it has happened; Yes i am afraid that all excecises in the sport of IPO must be made cleanly and very quickly by the dog, and if the handler is doing his job he or she will present themselves in a manner which will help there dog; It is a team effort not just about the dog. Plus at heeling the dog must be close to your left leg not leaning on you and its focus should be on the handler. When a dog is doing the protection its whole outlook changes? it is at this point where it is seen how well trained the handler has the dog because the dogs ambition is to get to the Helper, but at the same time it must curb its wants and listen to the handler This is putting pressure on the dog. a lot of pressure the dog wants something badly but cannot have it until told. Notice how the dog keeps looking up at its handler waiting and waiting for the signal to go. some dogs cannot wait and there nerves get the better of them they just go before the signal to do is given So points lost again;
Steve1
Schznd
I tried to open up the link but without any luck perhaps you can post the link up so i can look I am no better with computers as i was 2 years ago
It is time i went to bed so this is my last post today
Let me say this; If you walk with the dog at you side as if you do not have a care in the world then you will lose points; In IPO it is not only the dog but the handler as well up to a point; The handler must conduct there presence on the work field in a professional manner. this means you do not look down at you dog; you stand tall even if like me you are not so tall, you stand up right but relaxed. you walk along with authority . Now if you slouch or fall along then your dog will pick up on this and act accordingly. if you stand up extrud confidence and Power so to speak then your dog will react again to your body posture; Meaning it is looking at you as No1 and will work the same way
But saying all this does it not look better than slouching along, Animals pick up on the moods of the handler not sometimes but every time
If for instance i was not feeling up to the mark or i was not in a very good mood, i would never take the dog out to train, That session would be forgot about it does not happen often but it has happened; Yes i am afraid that all excecises in the sport of IPO must be made cleanly and very quickly by the dog, and if the handler is doing his job he or she will present themselves in a manner which will help there dog; It is a team effort not just about the dog. Plus at heeling the dog must be close to your left leg not leaning on you and its focus should be on the handler. When a dog is doing the protection its whole outlook changes? it is at this point where it is seen how well trained the handler has the dog because the dogs ambition is to get to the Helper, but at the same time it must curb its wants and listen to the handler This is putting pressure on the dog. a lot of pressure the dog wants something badly but cannot have it until told. Notice how the dog keeps looking up at its handler waiting and waiting for the signal to go. some dogs cannot wait and there nerves get the better of them they just go before the signal to do is given So points lost again;
Steve1
Schznd
I tried to open up the link but without any luck perhaps you can post the link up so i can look I am no better with computers as i was 2 years ago
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