False Pedigrees or WhaLA! Dominant Black... - Page 2

Christine, What evidence do you have that there was a dominant black gene in the original gene pool and that von Stephanitz "tried" to eliminate it? Can you give us some pedigree cites and some cites from his book  or his yearly reports and letters? Since it is a dominant gene NOT recessive and since von Stephanitz and the SV controlled who got into the registered breeding pool it would be very easy to eliminate IF it ever was a problem - which I personally have never heard of it being and I've been collecting old GSD books, magazines and standards for 50 years.

According to another thread, the Volgerland dogs all go back to one DDR bitch. We know from people who lived and owned GSD in East Germany that if showed up with a dog to the Koer and they liked it and you did not have papers then papers would be found. So re the Volgerland dogs I would have a very high suspicion level that another breed was crossbred in either deliberately or accidently. A friend recently had an oops litter with a GSD bitch and a black Lab. The pups absolutely look like black labs with not a trace of shepherd in them so I'm thinking the reverse is also possible.

Re the American line dogs, I knew many of those dogs and NEVER heard anything about a dominant black. I suggested the owner contact Nancy Harper ( Heinerburg), the Sherjack kennel and especially Scootie Sherlock ( Caralon) if she is still alive as she was a student of the GSD genetics, GSDCA will have contact info for them. Also gck could you provide us with a link to the pedigree you are talking about. Are you absolutely sure the sire could not carry recessive black? I have seen black, white and off colours ( liver, blue) literally hide for 7 or 8 generations and then with the right combo of mates up they pop.

I wrote to Nancy Harper earlier today.  Will ask GSDCA for contact info on the others mentioned.  The stud dog is from well-known German show lines.  We had him DNA coat color tested and he does not carry the "a" recessive black gene.  We also did DNA parentage testing.  No surprises (especially since the female was with me for more than a week during her breeding span).  This breeding will be repeated in the next week or so.  

Goya has been discussed here before and she is one of the dogs reported to be a dominant black.  

She is in the 6th gen of the pedigree of this dog

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=522398-goya

I suppose it is possible that this dog is also a dominant black.  Would love to know for sure as there just aren't that many out there

My question now is, is dominant black something that was originally in the foundation stock of the breed or was it added through "similar type" breeds such as the Groenendael?  Not familiar with the history of the breed other than it is dominant black and the most similar to a GSD.

Or is it more likely deceptive falsification of pedigrees and litters....

There should be owners of this kennels offspring to verify first, is it actually dominant black. 

So Gck what's the problem with actually giving us a link to a pedigree? Someone just might know something about your lines. By the way when doing pedigree research it's important NOT to assume and in the GSD world  as I've pointed out before, the fact that a dog is named Wolf or Wulfie  doesn't mean it's part wolf. For you information LA Negra was a Black and tan and Jasmine ( Now I'm assuming this is what you listed as Hasmin since the pedigree would be right) was either a melanistic black & tan or a bi). Pictures available here http://www.heinerburgshepherds.com/photo_gallery.html La Negra;s posted below. Also why don't you order a 16 generation pedigree from one of the pedigree service that lists the color the dog was registered with. Not always accurate especially if the owner registering the dog is unfamiliar with the development of color in young GSDs but would be a start to your supposed mystery.


PS if ordering from a pedigree service make sure they have the SV stud books and back far enough. Also Nancy should be able to give you contact info for Sherjack and Caralon.

Well, my Willis book on the GSD seems to be missing, and I know my Lanting book was loaned to a friend and never came back, but I'm going through my v. Stephanitz.

First, the problem is that it wasn't until relatively recent years that the idea of "dominant black" versus "recessive black" was well understood. We know that from the very beginning solid black dogs were part of the breed. However, Stephanitz says, "... our smooth-haired shepherd dogs show the same colours as the shepherd dogs of other countries. The foundation colour is a wolf-like dark shading on grey-yellow ground, from which all other colours, from the pure white ... up to the uniform black, have been developed" (Ch. 1, pg 125, 1994 reprint). He mentions "dapple blue fellows" and dogs with "tiger-spotted" and "tiger-striped" coats--as well as "black with yellow points."

As far as "how do I know it was in the foundation of the breed?" My reply is how do we know that it was not? It was there in all the other landraces that were in the area at that time. There was definitely pressure to select for the sable dogs (as stated by Stephanitz in his discussion of the Phylax society).

I don't really have hours to sink into this tonight, but every mention of dominant black that I have read in breed books was that it was "bred out" -- which implies that it was there to begin with. In fact, if white and merle and brindle were there to begin with, I can't imagine that dominant black wasn't.

Now I am all disgruntled that my Willis book has disappeared. :(

Christine

My question is why is dominant black such a big deal (honest question)?

And why can't it be recessive black that came out in these dogs, and NOT false pedigree?
Christine, I trust if anyone can explain all this, it will be you.
BTW-thank you for years of education.

It cannot be recessive black from the black and tans listed in the pedigree. 

It is important because the evidence leads to misrepresentation of a pedigree more than whether the dogs are dominant black.

Every dog that carries recessive black will and always display outward evidence they carry it.  The dogs in the pedigree bred to the black dogs absolutely DO NOT carry recessive black thus making the black dogs dominant black or fiction.

TIG, if I knew how to publish links to the now 15 generations of pedigree digging I would do it.  Happy to have you walk me through the process!  Nancy was very helpful, as were AKC research pedigrees.  I can now trace an unbroken line of black dogs coming mainly (but not solely) through Jeenellyn bloodlines.  The pedigree trail stops, so far, with Jeenellyn's Chancellor (1964).  Now have some leads on old German dogs to follow.  There is no mystery for me.  My female (Sheldon's Zuri) is proven to be dominant black.  Her mother (Sheldon's Raina) must also be dominant black from information already provided.  With new DNA testing capabilities, maybe we will find out that there are, in fact, a number of dominant black bloodlines--not just the Russian clan.  So far, the main black line is consistent for 15 generations.  But there is a secondary black line that comes to an abrupt halt with a dog named Sherriff (1975).  His mother line only goes back 2 more generations.  There is nothing in his father line that would support a black dog or in the two available motherline generations.  My suspicious side thinks, "Hmmm--wonder if this was on 'Oops' breeding."  Can you recommend a pedigree service that includes AKC dogs?

Gayle Kirkwood