Need X-ray opinions - Page 2

Agree with Christine - TV and what happened to the rest of her tail? I wouldn't be too surprised to see normal hips if the vet could get a better xray.

Like Christine said, some characteristics of this X-ray remind me of my TV dog (who is OFA Good) but it's also really hard to tell stuff from this x-ray.

Would the TV be what caused the pelvis to look non symetrical? To me, the pelvis really looks off. That's probably why one leg is more muscular than the other. I have the same issue myself LOL! If she is standing with one leg slightly shorter/longer due to the pelvis, she WILL have larger muscles on the side that's used more. 

Good article on TV: http://siriusdog.com/tvs-cauda-equina-syndrome-spondylosis.htm

Another interesting fact: I watced a documentary on the wolves of Isle Royal and they ALL have TV.  At first some researchers thought this was unique to this type of wolf but dog fanciers know what this is.  They all have it because the current wolves are inbred.

Yes, TV does that, or rather TV *can* do that.  When I first had my dog x-rayed by my regulard vet for OFAs he said that the hips (the sockets and femoral heads) were fine but that he had a beast of a time positioning my dog and that my dog's pelvic structures were messed up.  So I took my dog to a specialicist who x-rayed him again and showed me the TV.  There is definitely a spectrum of severity.  Not only does he have a TV but he has pretty bad "APA" (asymetrical pelvic attachment).  The TV itself is not symetrical (has one transverse process but not the other) which throws the whole pelvis off.  As for the actual hips, my dog is OFA Good.  For breeding purposes, the specialist I talked to said it is fine as long as the other dog does not have it so if I breed this dog they need to be OFA (because OFA will note TV on the certificate) or show me their x-rays if they have a different hip certification.  The TV has no impact on my dog's life.  He does Schutzhund, SDA, agility, dock diving, competes in flyball once a month, lure coursing, nosework, etc.  He's KKL1 and a nice mover at that.  TV *can* go hand in hand with HD but it won't cause HD.  Also the dog may have an increased risk of other back problems, but heck our GSDs are at risk for all this stuff anyway.

This is my dog's OFA x-ray.  See how the TV has one transverse process (the spiney thing that comes out the side) but not the other?  Also there are some random bone spurs where things wanted to start growing and stopped.  I believe this is a pretty severe case even though he has no pain and is extremely active and competitive in many sports.  It just looks bad on film.  This x-ray was taken by a specialist whose research was used to develop PennHip and who has served on the OFA panel so suffice to say he knows how to position a dog.  It's possible some TV dogs are physically impossible to position perfectly but you can still get your OFA rating.



Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread I just never knew about this until I saw it on my dog's film so hopefully it's informative.

Thank you VKGSD for sharing that article;  very informative.  Personally if I was aware of this condition I would not use the dog for breeding, yet I believe the athletic events may be OK I would also be careful of what the dog does. 

In the OP's case there is not much depth in the conformation on the right side.  JMO of course but would be interested in seeing another x-ray at a more mature age.  Again,  JMO.  Thx  Nan

Nans, the condition, being polygenic, needs to be examined from a bigger picture when making breeding decisions. If we didn't breed *any* dog that had any one thing wrong, well, we wouldn't have a whole lot left to breed.  One has to consider the the pedigrees of both dogs in the potential pairing, their siblings, and how they've already produced.  If I saw this cropping up more than once (like a littermate had it, or a dog produced it), that would be a red flag for me, but randomly with one dog especially given the specialist's evaluation (as someone who has done genetic research), I won't disqualify the dog from breeding on that alone.  Same way I wouldn't automatically disqualify a dog for missing a tooth or being being a DM carrier or not being the color I like.

Well true but the first thing in the article by Fred Lanting is that it is hereitary??  Really makes me wonder what else we might be missing in breeding this beautiful and regal breed.  Just a concern.  Nan

It's not directly inherited. It's like you get the shape of your feet from your parents--it's hereditary--but there are a lot of genes that go into that formation. It's like getting 4 of a kind in any random deal of the cards. Any time you breed a purebred dog, you are dealing with a concentrated set of genes. Unless we open up the breed registries again, that will never be different.

His article uses the word "congential" and not the word "hereditary".  Sometimes these terms get used interchangably but they are different.  I don't really understand it all myself since I am not a vet nor have I studied genetics but both the vet and the specialist told me this was "congenital".  Congenital means it forms in-utero and does not necessarily result from genetics (and won't necessarily pass it on).  Hereditary means it was already predetermined by genetics, no getting out of it.

Honestly it could very well be both, or one or the other, but I don't think many people have studied it that far because it doesn't really much either way.  It doesn't cause pain or any other problems, doesn't change the overall conformation of the dog as far as the breed standard, doesn't prevent the dog from doing what all other dogs do.  So I guess something like HD that is far more common and has far more impact and is still not all that predictable would get a lot more attention as far as research goes.  That's just my guess.  Even if it were proven that it's not hereditary, I still did my research into the dog's lines, looked at his siblings' results and the health and results of their progeny (some of his littermates have already had multiple litters).

The Lanting article describes some conditions that pose a risk or could develop in combination and at first I was almost in tears thinking my dog could not ever have a "normal" sport/working dog life because I would cause something like CES, but both the vet and the specialist told me there was *no* reason to restrict my dog from anything.  Personally, being the worry-wart that I am, the conditions mentioned in the article are ones I'm looking for even among dogs with perfect skeletal conformation.  Dogs that do demanding physical activity can develop CES with or without TV or HD or any other problems so I'm always very aware of keeping my dogs lean and muscled, making sure when we do activities like flyball and agility they use proper technique so they aren't putting unnecessary strain on their bodies.  I think it's important to be aware of the conditions mentioned when dealing with sport or working dogs just as a general bit of knowledge and precaution.  I x-ray my sport dogs' spines when I do their OFAs just as a baseline but I'd rather be extra thorough than sorry.

I suppose anything is possible when dealing with breeding dogs but I am particularly concerned when someone mentions the GSD spine and all its problems.  Just a pet peeve of mine as I did have a dog with DM.  Don't want to head that direction again so am trying to absorb all pertinent information concerning congential and inhereitable diseases and their causes and if the dogs ever do have problems later in life or if it  does affect HD or vise versa.  So you could say the ortho end of the dogs has always interested me and probably always will.  The more you can find regarding what makes the dogs the athletes they are the more info available I feel is a good thing to acknowledge.  Nan

PS:  I think you are very smart in also x-raying the spine when doing your Hip/elbow xrays, baseline is good.  I will probably do that with my next guy also.  Nan