Why did roach back become the "in thing" - Page 2

Thanks Sonora and Abbey for directing people to the article - I have to say I don't understand why this matter has repeated itself on the forum as though it's never been discussed before and then the usual run of people who have no idea but profess to know have a go and inevitably create confusion.
Anyway, I trust those who have the patience to read the article and want to understand the issue and other matters such as the mention by someone in this thread regarding overangulation go to the paper/link and all will be explained and explained in great depth and explained accurately.

Louis

To Louis Donald:

Love your article - keep going back to it because it is so dense with info! I found so many things I had questions about - and answers or at least opinions. Lots to think about! I recommend your article to other people!

Thanks so much for your dedication to this fantastic breed of dog! 

A question on topic, reading some posts I get a notion that some think that the breed in its early days reached what the breed standard calls for. My own understanding is that the Captain put down on paper his own vision of what he wants the breed to become/reach and worked accordingly to establish and form the breed he has in his mind but when he died the breed was not at the end point of the road.
Those who continued the Captain's work, took the breed more steps forward towards his vision. The question: Did the Captain say anywhere in his writings that the breed is now, I mean "at that time", complete and should be kept the same with no further bettering/improvement towards the standard/vision? 

Ibrahim

someone once told me... health first, temperment second and looks third. I will only buy from a breeder who breeds from healthy stock

No way would i spend 500 - 600 quid on a dog who hasnt had health tested parents when i can buy a dog with all the test for the same price (cheaper if am lucky enough)

all in all.. i dont care how the dog will look aslong as it is healthy :) Hopefully a little bit of breeding with healthy stock can one day produce the pups i would want :)

Health alone does not make a breed, standard does not give grades of value to various aspects that constitute the GSD.
It is left to the single breeder to make his own decision where and when to make necessary compromises as long as dog/line remains within standard parameters.

Ibrahim

Mr. Donald, I read your article in the Time4 Dogs blog and was stunned to see that some one was actually saying the truth about the gsd breed instead of all the propaganda one sees every where. Thank you for your work.

Ibrahim
No, if you read Wootton, Willis, Schwabacher, Elliott et al  there appears to be concensus that Von
Stephanitz thought the exact opposite, that the breed would go on developing  (and should).

Question to Louis Donald:
In a posting replying to photographs put up by  sitasmom  dated 1 April, you said she was correct,
her bitch looked 'roached' in the first picture because it was being stood badly  "because the handler is pushing the hindquarters/croup down and forwards. This happens all the time by novice handlers who think they know it all but don't and this is what also creates the exagerated slope to the back."


You go on to say that the bitch's topline in the two following pictures is correct.  (I am assuming that this posting was genuine, nobody forged it in your name ?)
I could not agree MORE with your assessment of the bitch pictured.

Now, can you please answer a further question ?  Given that much worse toplines do exist (and can consequently look even worse when stacked), in not just the USA but also Uk, Germany, Italy,
Japan ..., do YOU think the breed is 'going to hell in a handcart' ?? Is there evidence breeders are playing with fire with the health of the dogs if we allow any upward curve AT ALL ?

Interesting, I had missed the end of the other thread. I have a question too, are all handlers stacking their dogs incorrectly, and that includes professional handlers at all the top shows, since the majority of dogs seem to exhibit what 'appears' to be a roach back when shown.  Some, one quite notable UK dog that springs to my mind, seen 'at rest' still has an evident upward curve to his spine - I have seen it, but others like Sitasmom's bitch don't. So I do accept that the stack can create a roach if done badly, but is everyone doing it so badly?

In the article the influence of deep overangulation is very enlightening and explains a great deal about it's effect upon the topline. Because of course, one anatomical feature always has an effect on everything else.

Thanks Hundmutter, you made it clear, I will go a bit further, so it is not correct when some compare our present GSD with that of the Captain's time because it wasn't still what the Captain had in mind as the end result and it still needed further shaping and developing and if he himself lived more years he would have continued onto developing it. 
And to say that today's GSD is incorrect because its structure is much different from the Captain's GSD is not a logical argument.
I think the development of the type and structure is a great and very important accomplishment for the breed, but in the course temperament, nerves and work desire were compromised plus we face general weakness in ligaments and more tendency towards deeper hind angulation, excessive slopes in backs and or roaches.
What we need at the moment is two paths to try and correct the breed direction:
1. maintain the type and at the same time enhance ligaments by selective breeding within the showlines, make a warning against roached backs and excessive hind angulation.Promoted VAs should be gradually chosen to reflect desired corrections. More emphasis and stress should be put on work ability tests.
2. Another parallel path is at the same time the top of the correctly structured Wl dogs should be promoted to use in the Show breedings and show breeders should be encouraged to do that and should be rewarded for it in order to enhance work ability, strong nerves and character, in this path the type might be compromised in the first few generations but dogs from this path can be crossed again with dogs from path one or vise versa. In the second path if in the near future we loose 20% from type and gain 60% work ability then it is a positive result allover.
Authorities after few generations from both paths, can evaluate results of both and decide to continue both seperately, disregard one and concentrate on the other or bring both paths into one. One more option that can be adapted is path 2 can provide one or more new lines to present show blood lines to cross with, it won't be a waste in anyway in my opinion.

Ibrahim 

Ibrahim, if I knew yet how to send one of those 'thumbs up' emoticons to show you I agree with you, it would be what was in this post now!