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by AndyG on 16 March 2012 - 13:03
Nancy, as I mentioned, we did a lot of different neurological tests that all pointed to DM. One of the main differences between DM and Disk Compression injuries is that DM is a very slow process yet Golo showed typical signs of DM 3-4 years before.
Tick paralysis is also an acute and fast progressing disease. If it had been the case, we could not get any improvements by applying Dr Clemmons' methods and massages.
Tick paralysis is also an acute and fast progressing disease. If it had been the case, we could not get any improvements by applying Dr Clemmons' methods and massages.
by Nancy on 16 March 2012 - 13:03
Tick disease can cause the neurologic issues in the chronic phase. Sometimes the acute phase swings by unnoticed.
So what diagnostic tests did you use because I was told very differently here about how to get a definitive diagnosis. {and I left my first vet, then the specialist with a list of possible options very quickly}
It is confusing because you reported you did not see signs before and that your dog collapsed suddenly.
So what diagnostic tests did you use because I was told very differently here about how to get a definitive diagnosis. {and I left my first vet, then the specialist with a list of possible options very quickly}
It is confusing because you reported you did not see signs before and that your dog collapsed suddenly.
by AndyG on 16 March 2012 - 14:03
Nancy, in my original post I mentioned that
"Now I understand some worrying signs of DM like dragging his foot, that we were supposed to see before, but unfortunately we had known nothing about DM when it happened."
Regarding Tick disease. We live in Australia and the possible tick paralysis (I holocyclus) was ruled out immediately, since its symptoms are completely different here. It is extremely acute with respiratory failures. If not treated immediately, it usually leads to death in a few days.
"Now I understand some worrying signs of DM like dragging his foot, that we were supposed to see before, but unfortunately we had known nothing about DM when it happened."
Golo had been showing DM signs long time before he collapsed (3-4 years earlier), but we just could not see them. I only realized it after reading a lot about DM and its symptoms.
My first vet also prepared a list of possible diagnoses including all you mentioned. Then we consulted another vet specializing in neurology. He did EMG and different reflex tests. We decided not to go through Myelogram though. Both vets agreed that it is DM yet could not suggest any solutions... they have never heard of Dr Clemmons. I totally agree with you that you need to rule out possible disk injuries before applying our method. BTW, we also tried electro-acupuncture, but it was not very effective. That's why I didn't mention it.Regarding Tick disease. We live in Australia and the possible tick paralysis (I holocyclus) was ruled out immediately, since its symptoms are completely different here. It is extremely acute with respiratory failures. If not treated immediately, it usually leads to death in a few days.
by Nans gsd on 16 March 2012 - 20:03
Thank you Andy for your informative post; I am so sorry for your loss and WOW 14+ years is a long time for a DM dog; you are so lucky that these last few years, thanks to your being able to get the correct information for him, were healthful years and still years of quality of life. Boy that says a lot for your studying about this horrific disease and doing what is best for your boy. RIP dear Golo my friend; Nan
by Nans gsd on 16 March 2012 - 20:03
People, just so you all know, DM hits every dog differently. Yes the symptoms might be similar but the initial onset is different as day and night for each dog. Short, long, devastating, mild symptoms and some can deal with their disease for a long time, some don't have that option at all. Can be short, but deadly and may have been coming on for a long time, symptoms could have been too suttle to notice until too late, especially in young dogs. ALL dogs are different, all breeds have different levels of symptoms. Great days to everyone, Nan
by Abby Normal on 16 March 2012 - 21:03
I must be honest, my first thought was that this was unlikely to be DM. Nobody wants to argue especially when one has lost a beloved dog, and you did wonderfully well to help your dog whatever the cause may have been. However I do agree that it is misleading to suggest that DM can be 'reversed' for any length of time, and may give false hope.
Nan, the presentation and progression of DM in the GSD are not usually all that variable, in fact they are normally very predictable and improvement, as beetree said, just doesn't happen.
Sometimes you can achieve a plateau for a period of time, but not a dramatic improvement as the OP reports, which does suggest a condition other than DM. Could have been a fibrocartilaginous embolism?
The fact is we will never know what your dog had. I am glad that you had success with your dogs condition, whatever it was.
Nan, the presentation and progression of DM in the GSD are not usually all that variable, in fact they are normally very predictable and improvement, as beetree said, just doesn't happen.
Sometimes you can achieve a plateau for a period of time, but not a dramatic improvement as the OP reports, which does suggest a condition other than DM. Could have been a fibrocartilaginous embolism?
The fact is we will never know what your dog had. I am glad that you had success with your dogs condition, whatever it was.
by AndyG on 16 March 2012 - 23:03
It is amazing how people toss the statements to protect their ill assumptions and possible wrongdoing.
Abby Normal, where did I state that DM may be 'reversed' for any length of time? Also, what about contacting Dr Clemmons and asking him for his case studies, what I did? If you had done it, you would have changed your opinion. These guys have been studying DM for the last 30 years or so. There are a lot of dogs that were able to slow down DM for many years.
I totally understand all people who lost their loved ones due to DM. It is easier to admit that it was not possible to do anything rather than trying to think beyond the common concepts that could be wrong.
This is usually what happens. DM in the GSD is a long disease. In most cases people don't notice or don't understand its signs before it becomes obvious, like in our case. Then it usually goes in peaks and valleys with some temporary improvments. If you happen to be in a "strong DM peak" the situation becomes critical, because you may not have enough time to get back to the "valley". If a dog cannot move, go to the toilet normally etc, it will affect other organs (e.g. kidney). So, this is a critical time, because, if the dog's condition cannot be fixed urgently, you have no options left.
On the other hand, if you are able to help you dog to get back to a temporary "valley", you gain some time yet can delay the cause of DM, should you use a right treatment. This is exactly what we had managed to achieve: Golo recovered back (about 80%) to his pre-crisis conditions before Feb 2010. Then we managed to keep him that way for another two years, though he never recovered completely.
When we suddenly got into the devastating DM peak in Feb 2010, we just didn't know what to do. I could not find any sensible information except Dr Clemmons methodic. However, as I stated several times, using only Dr Clemmons suggested medication is not enough. You need to do other things, but because you simply have no ideas what to do, you have to start experimenting or give up. We decided not to give up. The summary of the key things that helped us is in my original post.
I know that many people were and many people will be in our situation.
My goal is not to convince people who lost their loved ones that they were doing wrong. I feel that my obligation is to give people, who will be in the same position as ours, some additional information to digest and then decide.
Abby Normal, where did I state that DM may be 'reversed' for any length of time? Also, what about contacting Dr Clemmons and asking him for his case studies, what I did? If you had done it, you would have changed your opinion. These guys have been studying DM for the last 30 years or so. There are a lot of dogs that were able to slow down DM for many years.
I totally understand all people who lost their loved ones due to DM. It is easier to admit that it was not possible to do anything rather than trying to think beyond the common concepts that could be wrong.
This is usually what happens. DM in the GSD is a long disease. In most cases people don't notice or don't understand its signs before it becomes obvious, like in our case. Then it usually goes in peaks and valleys with some temporary improvments. If you happen to be in a "strong DM peak" the situation becomes critical, because you may not have enough time to get back to the "valley". If a dog cannot move, go to the toilet normally etc, it will affect other organs (e.g. kidney). So, this is a critical time, because, if the dog's condition cannot be fixed urgently, you have no options left.
On the other hand, if you are able to help you dog to get back to a temporary "valley", you gain some time yet can delay the cause of DM, should you use a right treatment. This is exactly what we had managed to achieve: Golo recovered back (about 80%) to his pre-crisis conditions before Feb 2010. Then we managed to keep him that way for another two years, though he never recovered completely.
When we suddenly got into the devastating DM peak in Feb 2010, we just didn't know what to do. I could not find any sensible information except Dr Clemmons methodic. However, as I stated several times, using only Dr Clemmons suggested medication is not enough. You need to do other things, but because you simply have no ideas what to do, you have to start experimenting or give up. We decided not to give up. The summary of the key things that helped us is in my original post.
I know that many people were and many people will be in our situation.
My goal is not to convince people who lost their loved ones that they were doing wrong. I feel that my obligation is to give people, who will be in the same position as ours, some additional information to digest and then decide.
by beetree on 16 March 2012 - 23:03
You know what bothers me? How you missed the toe dragging. Doesn't fit with such a meticulous type, that is how you come across to me. And you said the dog was collapsed when you finally noticed anything. Then you go on to say how you were going up and down stairs. None of that fits, to me.
by Nans gsd on 16 March 2012 - 23:03
Yes Andy and we all thank you for that info. Nan
by AndyG on 17 March 2012 - 00:03
You know what bothers me? How you missed the toe dragging. Doesn't fit with such a meticulous type, that is how you come across to me. And you said the dog was collapsed when you finally noticed anything. Then you go on to say how you were going up and down stairs. None of that fits, to me.
Yes, Golo had been dragging his foot for, at least, several years before Feb 2010. Not very pronounced "knuckling", though it also happened a few times, but excessive toenail wearing. Sometimes when walking in the forest he could not not step on his hind leg, but we were thinking that he was stepping on some edged stone yet his foot is supersensitive. Usually we massaged his leg and he was ok in 20-30 min. Also, in Feb 2010, when the vet saw his toenails, his first reaction was DM.
Well, another question is why the vet didn't notice anything before Feb 2010 as we were visitng him every 6-9 months for vacinations teeth cleaning etc. But this question is not to me...
Yes, Golo had been dragging his foot for, at least, several years before Feb 2010. Not very pronounced "knuckling", though it also happened a few times, but excessive toenail wearing. Sometimes when walking in the forest he could not not step on his hind leg, but we were thinking that he was stepping on some edged stone yet his foot is supersensitive. Usually we massaged his leg and he was ok in 20-30 min. Also, in Feb 2010, when the vet saw his toenails, his first reaction was DM.
Well, another question is why the vet didn't notice anything before Feb 2010 as we were visitng him every 6-9 months for vacinations teeth cleaning etc. But this question is not to me...
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