What makes a working line gsd breed worthy? - Page 2

Personal choice of breeder who is not title or kennel blind! While having all the health issues addressed (hips/elbows and possibly back) I've seen too many titled dogs that produce crap! I've seen working dogs that I'd breed to that have never seen a schutzhund field!

ron, barack, jet

 

judron55
If not working then what criteria do you look for in a Dog at least if you go for what i have listed above you have a sound base Plus your theory does not hold water
Lets say you have a Child, this one in time turns out to be brainy and does well, then does it mean that every child you have will be the same, i think not, Like Dogs only a few reach the really top Heights, Plus you are forgetting the most important thing
THERE ARE MORE CRAP HANDLERS AROUND THAN BAD DOGS BEING TRAINED, funny how people blame the dog if it does not make the grade But it is the handler who is not up to the grade in most cases, but few if any will admit to it First and foremost you need a sound base of which the Dog has been temprament tested and for its courage and indeed its appitude for working, At least if you have worked a Dog through from a Puppy to ScH3 got its Joints Top, then got it korclassed you have a base to work on none of the above is done in two minutes it takes several years to get to that postition and a lot of hard work, and it is so easy to knock it
Steve1

I'll step in gingerly in this debate, becasue there are always a lot of strong opinions.

It is true as steve1 has stated that there are a lot of "crap" handlers than bad dogs being trained, however there are a lot of very good trainers who can turn a crappy dog into a SchH3 dog by titling him in the most advantageous conditions (home field, trainer handled, familiar helper, etc...) possible, hanging a Korung on him and selling him to some unsuspecting schmuck who thinks he's bought a world beater.  That being said, not all dogs of impecable breeding end up working or even getting titled.  Some get injured in training, or just end up in a home that is not inclined to work or train the dog in sport.

Breeding is always a little bit of a crapshoot where you try to mitigate the risk by breeding towards what you desire and away from what you loathe... I would always start with bloodlines that are known to produce value.  I can excuse low level of achievement on a dog's first and second generation as long as there is a lot to sustain a decision to breed the dog (temperament, conformation, drives, bloodlines) in the first place and the product has been shown to be capable to perform in those areas that are born abilities (tracking) and be controled in those that are learned (protection/Obedience).  I would look for the dog come from physically sound (hips & elbows) and healthy parents.

I also would like to see in events the points taken away from the dog due to the handler identified as such.  If I were to cost my dog 10 points in any event, my ego is not so big that Iwouldn't consider hiring a pro so my dog could achive what his 5th wheel owner can't allow him to...  I'm sure that there are a lot of dogs hampered by their owner/handlers.

Well my question would be what about the person that has a very nice dog, but there is no schutzhund club around so instead trains his dog in let's say accelerant detection. Do you think that a dog that is unstable would be allowed to even be tested for that kind of work? To be honest, most of the attributes that we all hold dear for excelling in the sport are equally as necessary to do any kind of SAR, and detection work. I currently am training 2 of more dogs both in the "sport" and also human remains detection. I can tell you that a dog that a dog that is not sound in nerve and temperament, structure, and drive will not excell in this venue. My dogs have to be social, environmentally sound, willing to work both with me and independently, problem solve, in addition to having a sound body. There is no way a dog that has bad hips or elbows could ever do this job, due to the very nature of it. So I beg to differ with regard to schutzhund being the only way to measure a dogs breed worthiness, and I love the sport! I love everything about it. Can you honestly say that titles are the end all be all of breed worthiness, if that is in fact the case we have way too many dogs that are in the gene pool. JMHO.

Theresa

A GSD is worthy when it is an example of the breed standard.

conformation, temperament, and proving its ability with a title.

conformation - because poor conformation causes injuries and inability to work.

temperament - because a working dog with poor temperament is not trustworthy

ability - all German shepherds are supposed to be able to work at something - Sch, Herding, Leading the blind., search and rescue, detection etc..

Sitasmom:

I agree with most of what you say, however, the "conformation" issue has been taken quite afield by the governing bodies, particularly here in the USA.

Conformation causes injuries and inability to work.......I have seen many dogs with G conformation or worse that were excellent working dogs actually working. I see less and less of today's dogs with "excellent Conformation" being out in the field doing work....ie herding, SAR,police, military, etc. When is practical application going to marry with these theories about conformation "being reason for inability to work"??? Some of the best working German Shepherds were the dogs of the 20's 30's and 40's. Look at their conformation and it would be considered "butt ugly" today, YET these dogs ran faster, jumped higher, and performed extraordinary feats SO that the breed has the reputation it has today. How did their butt ugly conformation hinder their working???? We must match theory and dialogue with reality for credibilty, IMO.

 HOW about this ????? THE GERMAN SHEPHERD BREED STANDARD **!!! .i have read it perhaps 30 times having GSDs over 40 years.. To me ... I believe it states EXACTLY , very specifically ,what constitutes the GSD  in it's entirety from structure [ angulation , dimension , proportions]  , phenotypic / genotypic expressions as well as the behavioral instincts and aspects that should be present that make it a GSD .. does you dog fit into the standard [ accepting the notion there is no PERFECT GSD]  . If not ... then it does not deserve to be bred. IMO i would rather have the offspring of a non-tilted GSD , who  fits the standard ,  than to have the offspring of a titled GSD  whose flaws and character deficiencies were  deceptively masked in Sch training. not to imply all dogs Sch trained aren't breed worthy .. but i have seen many .. many that were non-breed worthy by my standards. 

steve1....no one was knocking anything....just making a point as you were....get off your high horse:-) I think I've seen and worked enough good/bad dogs to know...whether you thinks so or not buddy.....now just enjoy the topic and save your righteous indignation for someone else:-)