Another question about linebreeding - Page 2

When  you guys refer to inbreeding are you referring to mother/son;  father/daughter/ brother sister?  That is inbreeding.  not just a repeat of a dog in the past a few generations back.  Am I correct to assume this is what  you mean when you say inbreeding?

darylehret, thanks for that chart, fascinating stuff. I was also extremely interested in the OUTbreeding depression...seems like I kind of knew that but didn't know the terms to use. I am familiar with many of those dogs on your list and am gratified to see them there! I was actually interested in some of those lines because of temperament and working ability, so maybe in this case the hip ratings may be connected to working...hard to say what genes link up.

I'm not talking about breeding siblings or parent/offspring, not even close. I'm talking about breeding dogs who almost look like first cousins if you look back 6 or 7 generations. But they have been developing on different branches for many generations. I only want the ones who work, so in a way that makes my life less complicated; I don't give a rat's butt what color they are, unless they are underpigmented. 

Still, I never really got an answer about whether there is a magic number of generations that should count when considering the "relatedness" of prospective breeding pairs.

A friend of mine points out that when animals inbreed in nature, the strong ones survive and the weak ones die off. That's pretty much the equivalent of keeping the good puppies out of an inbreeding and culling (or neutering) the weak ones...right?

 Quote: what personal experience do you want to know? Again, it was a neutral statement.

So was mine. It is one thing to say what others have said, but I am looking for those that have done so, and if inbreeding depression isn't the bad recessives combining, and a person stopping there, ad saying that it is bad. I am looking to see if anyone went past that, and if they had problems again, and how bad. 

Quote:  I have had over 20 VA [Germany] and mostly VA1 ] progeny myself a, have had wrking line GSDs and also malinois, have been involved with the GSD for over 40 years.. i have taken a more than a Genetics course , and have heard from countless people throught the USA about the GSD ....some of the comments here.. well .. let's say interesting , for now........IMO there's a lot more to the thread and that meets the eye !!..

So you have used this type of breeding ?? Now answer me this would ya, you are a show breeder, and looking for phenotype, or basically a specific shape, correct ?? I have taken genetics courses, and they are only minorly helpful to me, as we are dealing with so many unknowns. Currently here in the US they have made the claim that they have unlocked the dogs DNA 

Here is a funny video that shows that they might have fibbed a bit about knowing what they are doing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a4CDvK868w

Yes, that person is my best friend. I get a lot of info out of her because she does have a master's in genetics. But her degree was like 12 years ago and MAN a lot of new data crops up every day. She knew exactly what you meant by inbreeding depression and a lot of other terms you use, but stuff like faded pigment attaching to fading temperament and a myriad of other observations only seem to attach to GSDs. She also is a proponent of careful linebreeding but like myself does like to toss in the occasional total outcross to correct certain issues. Of course, none of this works if you haven't been perpetuating your own line or at least carefully studying an HONEST breeder's results.

In my case, liver color showed up out of "nowhere" on the last litter (an outcross), but then the breeder who sold me my original bitch was not an honest breeder, so I had no way of knowing that it was probably in my lines. It's like I'm trying as hard as I can--in a vacuum. I suspect that MOST people actually are operating in a vacuum because the people they got their stock from never mentioned the dyed white feet or the dilute factor or the handler aggression or that one puppy with no testes.

This was my case with a guy who was DYING to breed his male to my older female, a pretty tough girl. He and his dog were WAAAAAY up in the competition hierarchy. Luckily the breeding didn't take, because I heard later that he'd had his teeth straightened and that he threw bad bite, long coats, monorchids, and handler aggression, and a couple other things that I forget right now. But this guy was going to let me get stuck with all that crap while using my bitch to improve HIS LINES!

OK so now I'm staying well within the stock I know, pretty much all about Aly and Yoschy and Fero etc etc. And my question is....at which point is does it stop being linebreeding and become INbreeding? Where is the line between the two terms? at second generation? third? The male I just used is essentially a first cousin to my young girl's grandmother. Too close? I guess we shall see in short order, since she is due.

Jeff -- was your question for me ??  I am niether a show breeder nor working line breeder  .. As a matter of fact not only do I outcross my breedings BUT even more so I cross my show line with my working line .. the result ... believe me or not .. V structure with progeny doing full bite suit apprehension and and starting defending handler at 1 year.  I don't need  nor dsesire the money , fame ,  glory  , places , awards , trophies ... 1 or 2 litters a year I produce simply for the love of the GSD... now anyone that breeds ... knows... 1  or 2 litters isn't for money .. and my showline i declined to send to Germany to show .. my working line male i declined to send for Bundessiegerprufung. This is my outlook ... a personal opinion ... I have seen so much .. I know I will not change the world ... nor people ... ---------- linebreeding .. I have no need for it nor will I get into a dissotation or debate about the practice... I just know every year , for a 1 ltter /year breeder i get more calls from people looking for puppies than i can count -  last year turned down over 20 people in 2 months then i stopped counting. the irony .. everyday  folk who have no background in genetics f, they even frown on linebreeding and ..from years gone by .. i have had more contacts with people that have had GSDs linebred and ---  on that note -enough said.

VomMarischal, it is hard to say which traits are closely linked genetically, because it's also about the breeder's selection.  The breeder wants the "full package", so is also selecting for the highest rated performers, and these are the ones that are getting a larger share of breedings.  So, are they linked because of the gene location, or because of purposeful selection?  A good performer producing a large majority of dysplastic dogs would soon be forgotten, employed less often, becoming a "dead end" for a bloodline that's purposely avoided.  So, I think that's also a lot of the reason why the list is composed of high performance bloodlines.  The career won't last long, if the hips don't.

"Relatedness" is measured as a COI percentage.  Individuals from each generation back contribute half as much as the ones a generation closer, so closer generations do tend to matter more, unless the dog appears with twice the frequency in the further generation (i.e., 8 times in the fourth generation could be* very significant).  Coefficient of inbreeding is only a calculation of the averages to simulate a supposed natural independent assortment of genes, regardless of selection pressures from the breeder, which can and do affect the actual allele enrichment of a population, by either decreasing or increasing relatedness.  It depends on what the dogs were selecte "for" or against, with each breeding match throughout the entire pedigree, and what may be lost or gained each step of the way.  That's just another way of saying what I mentioned above, but it does address your question; there's no simple answer for even a single proposed breeding.

Just in one breeding, you may very well be setting for one type while eliminating for another, and this is only in regards to the breeder's selection criteria, despite everything else going on besides.  You could be (in effect) outcrossing, in respect to a closely related pedigree lineup, where the two ancestral strains were selected for very differing criteria.  You could be inbreeding (in a sense) with a pedigree lineup of fixed types that aren't related to one another for several generations.

The only dog in the above list that I can tell right off is very closely inbred, would be Troll v.h. Milinda.  I would suggest that breeding for common type is more prevalent among successful producers, than inbreeding is.  There are very few lines that are purged to produce all around well when they're tightly linebred on.  Perhaps, there's just some we don't know about, because breeders are becoming less daring, or more concerned about public anti-sentiment regarding inbreeding.

Yes, I'm working on a COI chart regarding my litter which should be born any minute. Rather too late, I suppose, to start worrying about the genetics of an already-conceived litter, but hey, at least I'll have some numbers to work with as I watch my puppies mature. Thanks so much for all your help. 

Thirty plus years ago I read a book by a gentleman named Lloyd C. Brackett called Planned Breeding.
 He was a breeder of German Shepherds.
Although Dobermans are my predominant breed I was so impressed by what he wrote that I had a statement from his book done in Caligraphy and hung it in my "dog room".
The statement was "Physical compensation is the foundation rock upon whick all enduring worth must be built".
If you Google that statement you will see many people from different breeds have adopted his methods.

It is bascally a Inbreeding/linebreeding concept.
I personally don't like a totally outcrossed pedigree simply because the gene pool is so wide open.
Please note that is me personally. Not criticizing anyone else's preferences.
I feel that if you adhere closely to the principles outlined in this mans book you will produce some
outstanding dogs both mentally and physically.
I have a tightly linebred Doberman bitch that if I could clone her I would. I like everything about her - looks and personality.
I do prefer that she have a heavier bone so I don't look at her through rose colored glasses.
She completed her American Championship in 2 weekends out with back to back majors both weekends.
She has passed her working aptitude tests and is training in agility.
I own her father and mother who will turn 11 in April with no health issues and her grandparents all lived past 11 yrs old - on her father's side until 13 and 14+yrs.
I have just lent my GSD to his first breeding which will have 4 dogs that are 5-5 in his pedigree and one that is 4-4.

I think linebreeding is a great tool if used properly.

These were some of his principles in Lloyd Becketts book

#1 Learn What a Good GSD Specimen Is!
#2 Build a Strain!
#3 Build Your Kennel on the Selection of Bitches!
#4 Linebreed/Inbreed Wisely!
#5 Outcross—But Only for Definite Purposes!
#6 Know What to Expect through Inheritance!
#7 Know Faults for Correction through Physical Compensation!
#8 Use Only Outstanding Studs!
#9 Always Select the Best Bitch Puppies!
#10 Breed Back to Your “Toppers”!

1. Be able to recognize shortcomings and merits of dogs to be bred.
2. Study the pedigrees of the breeding pair and learn the shortcomings and merits of the breeding pair’s ancestors.
3. Make certain to select near faultless foundation stock.
4. Cull relentlessly.
5. Never mate together two dogs with similar faults.
6. AND remember that “Physical compensation is the foundation rock upon which all enduring worth must be built.”

Franki

Franki.....it seems to me that the problem is with #1. I can't get any two people to agree on what a Good GSD Specimen is. Drives me crazy. I look at the dogs that people are so dang proud of and think...well...ok, whatever. The standard doesn't work because too many things are interpretable. The best I can do is TRY, but I'm sure most people will say my interpretation is  wrong. Why else would they decide to breed their own rather than just hiring me to breed thousands of dogs? (Assuming that they aren't in it for the buck.)

Derylehret, I'm driving myself crazy trying to do this COI. Is there a program somewhere?

Yeah, here's a free one, but don't ask me how it works.  I'd think you'd have to have the data all the way back to the breed founders, and much better accuracy than this database could ever provide.  That doesn't exclude the occurance of falsified registrations, intentional or not, within the ancestry of your two breeding dogs.  Kind of pointless, IMO.

http://www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/

If I thought it were important to know, I'd take dna samples and submit them to Applied Biosystems or some other company, have the dna arrays put on disk, and do a genotyping study to measure the percentages of SNP's.  Because ultimately, that's what it all boils down to:  how much overall heterosis vs. homozygosis(?) is present.  And still, that doesn't evaluate quality of fitness by any actual measure, or what occurs at each important individual chomosome loci.  COI's is merely a numbers game, and it doesn't focus specifically on the quality of genetic data.