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by UlfKintzel on 01 March 2010 - 21:03
<<Human Fence--- (my interpretation) Rather than starting a young dog behind an actual fence, they have a line of people along the border (with crooks) to keep the beginning dog off of the sheep and behind the border. The dogs are not "hurt" and I started two this way. One of my dogs was fine with this method, the other is more sensitive and I put him away rather quickly, because it was obvious he was not learning anything, just getting confused.>>
Never heard of it. I prefer any correction coming from one and the same person.
Never heard of it. I prefer any correction coming from one and the same person.
by GSDXephyr on 01 March 2010 - 21:03
I wish I could go back in time and introduce my dog this way! Let them feel the sheep and watch them. Now I want a new puppy to start over with. We tried three different training methods when we started this, and none of them started with anything as quiet and natural as how this video looked. My dog was pretty confused about what the heck she was allowed to do around sheep and REALLY didn't like people with sticks for a while. Which leaves ME confused about her drives and if she can do tending or not. One person said "this dog would work sheep without you on the field" and the next one said "I'm not seeing anything in this dog." Too many confusing experiences mixing up our heads!
Heather
by UlfKintzel on 01 March 2010 - 21:03
<<My dog was pretty confused about what the heck she was allowed to do around sheep and REALLY didn't like people with sticks for a while. Which leaves ME confused about her drives and if she can do tending or not. One person said "this dog would work sheep without you on the field" and the next one said "I'm not seeing anything in this dog." Too many confusing experiences mixing up our heads! >>
Which is the idea of these video. I am familiar with many mistakes that people do. While I don’t specifically point them out in the video (some teachers will tell you that you shouldn’t teach what is wrong, you should teach the right approach), I did have them in mind when I made that clip. I know how exuberant and unnecessarily constantly some people praise and they get the dog all hyped up and them wonder why they end up with a crazy dog with obedience issues. I do know how many people move the sheep like wild and then wonder why the dog is in full prey mode wanting to bite all the time.
So, you are now the first to confirm that my “plot” succeeded. Thanks for the feedback.
...and now I have to actually do some work.
Which is the idea of these video. I am familiar with many mistakes that people do. While I don’t specifically point them out in the video (some teachers will tell you that you shouldn’t teach what is wrong, you should teach the right approach), I did have them in mind when I made that clip. I know how exuberant and unnecessarily constantly some people praise and they get the dog all hyped up and them wonder why they end up with a crazy dog with obedience issues. I do know how many people move the sheep like wild and then wonder why the dog is in full prey mode wanting to bite all the time.
So, you are now the first to confirm that my “plot” succeeded. Thanks for the feedback.
...and now I have to actually do some work.
by UlfKintzel on 01 March 2010 - 21:03
<<Is a BH required?>>
See my previous post below and thanks for the tip regarding video clips.
Regarding HGH dogs being exempt from the BH, there is no short answer: It should be seen in a different way. It should be seen in the chronological order. First, there was an HGH title. Then a SchH title/test was created. Obedience was assumed when professional shepherds titled their dogs simply because all training was done off leash anyway and at first only professional people obtained HGH titles. Then, after the creation of a SchH title and with the introduction of hobby people attempting to title a dog, the need to first prove that the dog is sound and obedient arose.
So, it is not so much that the dog in an HGH trial is exempt, it is that a BH was added for dogs attempting a SchH title. After so many years and since some time now the majority of titles obtained are SchH titles (as opposed to very few HGH tile), the perception has been reversed and dogs attempting an HGH title are considered exempt.
The argument could be made that nowadays a fair amount of hobby people attempts obtaining HGH titles and the obedience is at times insufficient. However, the exemption aims at the professional shepherds in Germany who participate in HGH trials.
Furthermore, the BH test has two parts: the obedience part and the temperament test. It is only the obedience part the dog is exempt from. The temperament test is incorporated in the HGH trial. The handler introduces him-/herself to the judge, shakes hand, the tattoo or microchip is tested. If the dog exhibits inappropriate aggressive behavior the dog may not participate in the trial.
PS: The statement that was made that the SV breeding regulations require a breed survey is incorrect. SV minimum breeding regulations require a working title (HGH, SchH, or DPO), a show rating of at least a "Good", and a qualifying hip- and elbow rating. If these requirements are met by both dam and sire the resulting litter will receive white papers. If the parents have both been breed surveyed in addition to these afore mentioned requirements the resulting litter will receive pink papers.
See my previous post below and thanks for the tip regarding video clips.
Regarding HGH dogs being exempt from the BH, there is no short answer: It should be seen in a different way. It should be seen in the chronological order. First, there was an HGH title. Then a SchH title/test was created. Obedience was assumed when professional shepherds titled their dogs simply because all training was done off leash anyway and at first only professional people obtained HGH titles. Then, after the creation of a SchH title and with the introduction of hobby people attempting to title a dog, the need to first prove that the dog is sound and obedient arose.
So, it is not so much that the dog in an HGH trial is exempt, it is that a BH was added for dogs attempting a SchH title. After so many years and since some time now the majority of titles obtained are SchH titles (as opposed to very few HGH tile), the perception has been reversed and dogs attempting an HGH title are considered exempt.
The argument could be made that nowadays a fair amount of hobby people attempts obtaining HGH titles and the obedience is at times insufficient. However, the exemption aims at the professional shepherds in Germany who participate in HGH trials.
Furthermore, the BH test has two parts: the obedience part and the temperament test. It is only the obedience part the dog is exempt from. The temperament test is incorporated in the HGH trial. The handler introduces him-/herself to the judge, shakes hand, the tattoo or microchip is tested. If the dog exhibits inappropriate aggressive behavior the dog may not participate in the trial.
PS: The statement that was made that the SV breeding regulations require a breed survey is incorrect. SV minimum breeding regulations require a working title (HGH, SchH, or DPO), a show rating of at least a "Good", and a qualifying hip- and elbow rating. If these requirements are met by both dam and sire the resulting litter will receive white papers. If the parents have both been breed surveyed in addition to these afore mentioned requirements the resulting litter will receive pink papers.
by july9000 on 01 March 2010 - 23:03
You said:
I know how exuberant and unnecessarily constantly some people praise and they get the dog all hyped up and them wonder why they end up with a crazy dog with obedience issues. I do know how many people move the sheep like wild and then wonder why the dog is in full prey mode wanting to bite all the time.
When I and my dog was inroduced to the sheeps for the first times I use to talk too much (not necessarily praise but too much talking) and my teacher use to tell me to just shut up and read the dog and the sheep. I listened and realised I was exciting the dog more leading it to a prey mode. The more relax I am the more focus is the dog at doing what is asked.
What I find very interesting with HGH dog is the calmness around the sheep. Is there a way to achieve that? Is it because the number of sheep is so much bigger that they move more slowly (being calmer themselves beause of their numbers I guess). Should you walk a dog on leash around the sheep and close to them to show him to relax around the flock?
Sorry to keep you busy Ulf..
Julie
I know how exuberant and unnecessarily constantly some people praise and they get the dog all hyped up and them wonder why they end up with a crazy dog with obedience issues. I do know how many people move the sheep like wild and then wonder why the dog is in full prey mode wanting to bite all the time.
When I and my dog was inroduced to the sheeps for the first times I use to talk too much (not necessarily praise but too much talking) and my teacher use to tell me to just shut up and read the dog and the sheep. I listened and realised I was exciting the dog more leading it to a prey mode. The more relax I am the more focus is the dog at doing what is asked.
What I find very interesting with HGH dog is the calmness around the sheep. Is there a way to achieve that? Is it because the number of sheep is so much bigger that they move more slowly (being calmer themselves beause of their numbers I guess). Should you walk a dog on leash around the sheep and close to them to show him to relax around the flock?
Sorry to keep you busy Ulf..
Julie
by MaxBear on 02 March 2010 - 00:03
Thanks Ulf !! Great information.
by UlfKintzel on 02 March 2010 - 00:03
<<When I and my dog was inroduced to the sheeps for the first times I use to talk too much (not necessarily praise but too much talking) and my teacher use to tell me to just shut up and read the dog and the sheep. I listened and realised I was exciting the dog more leading it to a prey mode. The more relax I am the more focus is the dog at doing what is asked.>>
Too much talking makes the dog tune you out. How do you deal with a person who talks and talks and talks? You stop listening. Same with the dog.
<<What I find very interesting with HGH dog is the calmness around the sheep. Is there a way to achieve that? Is it because the number of sheep is so much bigger that they move more slowly (being calmer themselves beause of their numbers I guess). Should you walk a dog on leash around the sheep and close to them to show him to relax around the flock?>>
How to calm the dog:
1. Control (meaning having an obedient dog)
2. Don’t motivate a dog that comes motivated. Praise here and then calmly to confirm and reassure when the dog is unsure about a situation.
3. Control
4. Be composed, let your movement reflect your composure. Give calm commands. Don’t move or talk hastily.
5. Control
6. There was something else I forgot…oh, I remember: control
7. Teach the dog to stop doing something and to just hang out with you near the sheep. Don't make the dog believe it always has to do something.
8. Did I mention control?
Too much talking makes the dog tune you out. How do you deal with a person who talks and talks and talks? You stop listening. Same with the dog.
<<What I find very interesting with HGH dog is the calmness around the sheep. Is there a way to achieve that? Is it because the number of sheep is so much bigger that they move more slowly (being calmer themselves beause of their numbers I guess). Should you walk a dog on leash around the sheep and close to them to show him to relax around the flock?>>
How to calm the dog:
1. Control (meaning having an obedient dog)
2. Don’t motivate a dog that comes motivated. Praise here and then calmly to confirm and reassure when the dog is unsure about a situation.
3. Control
4. Be composed, let your movement reflect your composure. Give calm commands. Don’t move or talk hastily.
5. Control
6. There was something else I forgot…oh, I remember: control
7. Teach the dog to stop doing something and to just hang out with you near the sheep. Don't make the dog believe it always has to do something.
8. Did I mention control?
by mobjack on 02 March 2010 - 01:03
by DDRshep on 02 March 2010 - 01:03
Most AKC C course instructors have American show line dogs with relatively weak defense drives. The "human fence" method stated by gagsd4 above does not work with German dogs with stronger protection drives. That was tried with my German dogs and the dogs bit the sticks, and fought the corrections, and almost bit the strangers. I also do not want a bunch of strangers correcting my dogs. That's the thing with training in herding in the U.S., you have to be careful training with some AKC people who are used to American showlines. Their methods will not work with stronger German dogs.
Thanks for coming into this forum with training tips and videos Herr Kintzel and ignore the usual peanut gallery.
Thanks for coming into this forum with training tips and videos Herr Kintzel and ignore the usual peanut gallery.
by july9000 on 02 March 2010 - 01:03
Most AKC C course instructors have American show line dogs with relatively weak defense drives.
Sorry to tell you I have encountered weak defense drive in all kinds of gsd...Not just american lines.
For the human fence I just don't get it..why do this when a real fence do the job without the human correction at the very begining of the training..I don't think it's a good way for the dog to feel good about what he is doing and getting confidence in his work.
Well I guess control is the key word!! Do you introduce your dog at a very young age? Or what is the best age? Or you just introduce the dog to the sheep when you know you have aquired enough control over the dog? at what stage of obedience you feel it is enough?
Julie
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