Training problem - bark and hold

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by steve1 on 17 October 2009 - 04:10

As i said on another thread we work them at the back of the hide to start with befor going to the hide proper. Always on a long line so the dog can be checked from biting or niggling at the sleeve the Helper can taunt the dog then to get it Barking
Helpers over here do not put on the suit and be helper for there own Dogs always someone else they know plus it pays to vary the helper from the beginning
Steve1

by VomRuiz on 17 October 2009 - 13:10

I am very new to SchH (3 months), and just started my male who is 2 and a half. We are not in the blind yet, but on the leash I had a problem getting him to bark. I was told to teach him the Gib Laut command at home, and then on the field I was told to use it . So of course being new and wanting to rush through everything, I started to say Gib Laut over and over until I was told to Shut Up (but nicely lol) and let the helper encourage the dog to bark with his antics.
I was told an occasional command to Bark is okay, but not over and over, shouting commands. Within about 4 visits to the club, he did his first real bark and hold and we are using revere now. It will still be awhile before we move to the blinds, but I was completely excited to get that first real one last week :-) I'm glad my dog leanrs faster than I do lol

Stacy

by SitasMom on 18 October 2009 - 03:10

Slamdunc

this is the way joe tackett trains, and tells us to do it........its works very well........I don't give a shit about your opinion.........

by GSDPACK on 18 October 2009 - 04:10

I teach the B& H on myslef.. come, bark and get a toy. later I transfer it on the helper.

The helper then grings out the fight and woalla... nice, long, beautifull B&H
pack

by Slamdunc on 18 October 2009 - 05:10

Sitasmom,
I asked a question based on the training advice you offered. I have used a variation of the "peek a boo" method you described, but not in the way you described. I generally don't make a "commotion" and the dog has to bark to make me move, I don't move to make the dog bark. The dog learns that it can start the action. This is for young, inexperienced or "softer" older dogs that need to learn the game. It is usually a fairly quick progression.

I actually don't understand why you would shout and repeat the revere command as you stated. Do you shout and repeat other commands such as sit or out? As a rule I only give commands once, then some action or behavior must follow.

You also wrote:

if the dog grips the sleeve before the helper moves a sharp tug on a prong collar and the command for outing is given.....

This can also be problematic, ideally the dog will never be close enough in training the hold and bark to get dirty.  The dog should be worked on a post, behind a barrier like H&B mentions, on a table or on a long line with an experienced person working the line.  The goal is too not let the dog get dirty bites in the hold and bark. When this is done training is much easier and the dog learns faster.  It also avoids alot of the conflict between the handler and the dog. It also avoids the decoy having to get involved in correcting the dog to "clean" it up. So, it avoids conflict with the decoy as well.  In the scenario you described it seems the progression is also too fast.

If that's the way your TD tells you to do it, then that's how you should do it. I don't know anything about your club's training methods or your TD besides what you have posted here. I guess it's worked well for you so far but didn't you go to a different trainer to learn how to teach Sita to focus and heel?

FWIW,

Jim

by steve1 on 18 October 2009 - 06:10

WE do not use a prong collar when teaching the Bark and Hold the Dog has a Chain collar on but is on the dead ring as well so it cannot tighen on the Dogs neck when corrected by the one using the long line
The Idea of using a long Line is so you can correct the dog if he goes to bite the Sleeve, It is to teach the Dog that it has to BARK and HOLD, correctly in the proper postion without biting until allowed to
I for one cannot see the point of causing the Dog pain when you are supposed to be teaching it to Bark other wise it will think it only has to bark when it feels pain on the collar
The idea of the line is so the Dogs motion can be controlled only, it will gradually dawn on the Dog what it has to do but cause it pain time and time again and it will relate that to the Barking and Hold
They do not use a prong collar over here for any FORM of Protection
Steve1

by Christopher Smith on 18 October 2009 - 06:10

They do not use a prong collar over here for any FORM of Protection

Who is "they"?

by ALPHAPUP on 18 October 2009 - 13:10

Oso .... without intentetion of being a smart aleck .. Where in the world did your helper / trakiner learn to train canines ? think through this with me here . IF ALL WAS GOING WELL .. WHAT happened in the dog's head tthat ellicit that unwanted behavior ? And What will the dog have to think , feel , want .. that will ultimately ellicit the new behavior that you want , HIM to want . My first fundamental ... I always teach /communicate the behavior I wish to extract from within my GSDs .. outside the confines of the protection scheme. I cannot go into all the specifics in this reply -but simply stated in my kitchen for instance I would teach my dog to bark on cue. NO STRESS Just fun . there are a multitude of ways to accomplish this . When I can get my dog to bark anywhere , anyplace and anytime THEN i Teach him : that if he wants to bite , or wants to get his toy .. he needs to BARK . you get the picture here ? ... if your dog on his own accord decides to bark .. then you are half way there. NO pressure / no conflict . no foolish bullshi*** drive bit terminology here. Change your dog's outlook and MOTIVATION from within. Now IF he barks for a bite, then progress to a sleeve .. a puppy or intermediate .. do not out the dog.. slip the sleeve, or your trainer can use two sleeves . NO OUTING - work on one issue at a time . work on the out later. I use a buckle collar. very very little stimulation ..just enough to get one small vocalization at one foot away , when the dog vocalizes he gets the bite. JUST do not let the dog get what he wants / the bite uUNTIL he vocalizes . I would wait and be patient / . enough stimulation as possible . close enough but far enough away the helper should be to entice the dog but not let it bite until the hlper is ready to give the bite immeiately after the vocalization .. wait minutes if you have to ..Also you can help the dog by giving the cue that you have previuosly taught to help the dog . Eg Gee Blout'. The lesson .. when you [dog] vocalize you get the bite. [ later you work more and more to a constant and / or ferociuos bark ] . you can work on getting the dog more Motivated [ pumped up ] and a barking/hold for a longer duration also you work on the second factor distance. If you cannot get the bark and hold at one foot away from you with the dog ... then WHY in the world would you ever consider anything more than 1 foot let alone a long line ? Obviuosly later you can progress to a blind / to a revier / etc. personally i do not go with a correction collar AT FIRST because with some dogs they will / can learn that without it .. you are limitted and some will become inventive for that dirty bite. . my shared words .. if the dog decides to bark and hold you will assuredly get a bark and hold. Change the thoughts /feelings and motivation of your dog . Don't dogs do things that they see that are with purpose and that are in their best intetrest ?

by steve1 on 19 October 2009 - 11:10

Mr Smith
THEY' are the members of the Club plus most or all others i know do not have a prong collar on the dog for protection, nothing unusual about that and why would you need to put on a Prong collar for protection
I might guess you do come from the UK going on your name, do you Guys use a Prong Collar in trials or Competitions in the UK or whichever country you reside in for if you did over here for any of the phases A B or C and the judge noticed it and he would you would be told to change it or get off the work field, but i guess the rules are different where you live
Steve1

by Liesjers on 19 October 2009 - 13:10

My dog went in the blind for the first time this weekend and he had a prong on and Fursaver on (both on dead ring). This is my first SchH dog, first time doing it, and I think I stopped him a foot short the first few times (we had a long stick on the ground drawing the line in front of the helper), but the helper said it was better to stop him short than let him in too far and get dirty. Once I got a feel for the distance and the length of line needed I think it was better. Prong collar had zero effect on the dog going in or the bark. IMO if the dog has the drive then he will go in and bark. If there was any concern about the dog not barking or not going in then I don't get why the dog would be sent in already. The prong is there because the dog simply cannot learn to get dirty. I think a Fursaver would have worked with my dog because he is not as big as some of the other dogs and I'm not as tiny as some of our other female handlers but the prong worked for teaching him the boundary without squashing the drive. Again if I had any concerns that he would not go in with drive, then I'd probably be doing a different sport or using a different dog, and if I didn't think he'd bark then we wouldn't be sending him in yet.

Steve I don't think it's wrong not to use a prong but I don't think the competition rules really factor in. We use a ton of things in training that we don't use in competition, the prong is just another tool (leashes, harnesses, back-ties, lines, treats, toys....).

Just my two cents, being a totally noob and having just done it for the first time...

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