HD vs Bad back - Page 2

Prager:  What do you make of all this?

Sueincc,

First of all thanks to Prager for bringing up this subject, something educating to read for a change from the many useless posts on the board lately. I want you to know that your personal experience narrated above is very heart touching and enlightening.

Ibrahim

Thank you for your kind words.  I hesitated telling Zorba's story because most here don't know me and didn't know Zorba so it would be easy to think I let this dog suffer and kept him alive for selfish reasons because that would be the case with  most dogs.    He was an extrordinary dog who was full of life until the end.  I am telling it because I think his story and the others here maybe point to a larger  issue surrounding some sort of correlation between abnormal skeletal issues (hips, elbows, discs, etc) and spines of GSDs.

Another interesting thing.  Up until he started having the spinal issues he was the picture of health.  We knew about his hips but they never gave him any trouble.  I realize all these things normally do crop up when a dog ages, but it seems almost like it went off like a time bomb.  I am wondering if something does trigger this chain reaction in the body? 

We know there is a genetic component to cancer.  It's my understanding (and obviously my grasp of the science of cancer is nominal at best)  Cancers are normal cells that  mutate, though we don't know exactly why they mutate or if they will or when they are going to mutate (even if we isolate the gene)  Cancer also is  more so a disease that effects a larger porportion of the aging population as compared to youths.   Something triggers the cell and it begins to mutate.

The way I understand back issues, the spine runs through a bony support system, the vertebral column. In between the individual vertebre are these spongy pads, that are constructed like onions, in layers, with a gel like substance in each layer, & strings of nerve fibers strand off of the spine in between the vertebre & discs. As the back ages, these discs lose their gel, become thinner & more fragile, sometimes losing their shape, sometimes being forced out from between the vertebra putting pressure on the nerve fibers that strand off the spine. When they do that, the person or dog developes pain, numbness, & loss of function to the area that nerve strand served, depending , of course, on how bad the pressure on the nerve is. When you consider how 'stretched 'some of our GSD are, it's not surprising that even a minor injury on an aging disc could put an incredible amount of pressure on that disc & rupture it completely, disabling the corresponding nerve strand. Also....as the spine & vertebra age, they tend to slide a little, to sublux, & develope boney spurs to try to support themselves....but these bony protrusions make disc injury more probable, & the sliding, subluxing of the vertebra narrow the space the spine has. That is a perfect storm for a back injury, & it doesn't take much to make your, or your dog's life miserable. Sue, thank you for sharing Zorbo's story. I think we need to look at the length of our dog's backs, maybe not go for that super-stretched look? A dog needs very strong musculature to support such a long back, & as dogs age, they slow down like us, so that's another factor in why aging dogs have this problem....does this make any sense? jackie harris

Sueincc said:
 We knew about his hips but they never gave him any trouble.
What do I make out of this? I think that hips should be healthy and properly developed, but I also believe that just about all the so called "hip problems" are not hips at all. We are worrying about hips (that is OK) but  I think that we are barking on the wrong tree. I have talked to many old timers in Europe and they seem to agree with this sentiment.
It got my attention when, to my horror, I have seen people putting dogs down at 2 years because they supposedly had bad hips and could not walk.But it was just pano. But that got my attention and I started looking on all those "bad hips" dog problems. And  I say this; there is no way that dog at2 years of  age can not walk because of bad hips. As matter of fact I'd say that if the dog can not walk up to 8 or maybe more years and has bad hips that the bad hips are only parallel problem with some other problem.
Ligaments,, torn muscles, pulled muscles, spondylosis, ruptured discs, fractured vertebrae. ......
Have you ever noticed that if you walk with the dog and there is a sapling trunk about 1ft -1.5 ft high that the dog will not jump over it but go under it,.. every dog? Unless commanded or has no other choice. Dogs seems to be hardwired not to jump unless they have to. All the jumping in sports and playing Frisbee and stick  and ball by throwing it over the dog's head while he is facing us..... what does it do? And then genetics. Nobody is paying attention to spinal genetics. People freaking out about hips but what about the spine? What about the structure? What about the proportions? What about the weight?
You know people are saying; those dogs with sloping backs have bad hips. It is an truism or is it an old wife's tale? No I think that they may have inferior backs.
That is what I make out of this.

JMO.
Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

i hate to even bring this up because people are always so divided on it, but........do we really know what electronics do to a dog's nerves?  there was a discussion about this on the euro board (yahoo) several years ago; maybe 2004/2005.  seems like i recall a debate over neck injuries about the same time - from poor catching/jambing.  so if hans is suggesting that excessive jumping might be causing injury to our dogs, i would also like to suggest shock collars and jamb/necks are injuring our dogs.
spondylosis??? degenerative mylopathy??? hip & elbow dysplasia???  is it really or is it that we are doing things with our dogs that are unnatural and things dogs were not intended to do?  some of it is genetic, but some of it is environmental.  perhaps we do need more research and better education on these matters.  thanks, hans!
pjp

Excellent, thought provoking points, Ziegenfarm.
 
Hans think I understand what you are saying, but I'm not sure.  My trainer subscribes to what I think is the same or a very similar theory.  The following are some examples of things we have changed a little bit to try to avoid  back injury/excessive wear & tear:

Let's say I am playing tug with a ball on a string, the dog is pulling backwards as hard as he can, and he isn't pulling steady he is jerking me.  Before i would just let go of the ball, which would cause the dog to fly  back onto his haunches and his back/butt  would absorb all that force upon impact crashing into the ground.

NOW instead of just letting go of the string I make sure to first platz my dog, or if we are tugging, I make sure he is in a more upright position or not pulling  very hard so that when I let go, he will still remain upright.

When I practice my recalls, when he comes in straight and perfect, many times we toss the ball  over the dogs head rather than do a finish because the ball is a big reward and we also don't want the dog to start anticipating the flip finish.  I used to just lightly toss it over his head but high and short so the dog could jump twist and catch the ball,

NOW when we do that exercise I take care to throw the ball further and lower so he now has to spin left or right but on the ground and take off after the ball.

We don't practice the jump at full height once the dog has learned he can clear it, we keep it a little lower and then work at full height before a trial.  Same thing with the climbing wall, we stretch it out  a little during practice to avoid jumping down from the top because the angle is less steep.

In practise for protection phase, the helper is more careful when he catches a flier, he makes sure to ease him back down with all his legs on the ground,   Also more careful about jamming a dog which might lead to neck injuries. 

I have to sign off for now, but I am going to try to think of other things I can do to preserve my dog.  If I think of more I will post them and maybe if others have ideas they can post them as well.

Canis lupus by Nature

Canis Lupus by man

Prager Hans
http://www.alpinek9.com

Pragear,i take it that the black shepherd in pic 2 is an AKC type shepherd.not pleasing to my eyes.very low to the ground at the back end.Carole S.

So basically the dogs get "" MULTIPLE SCLEROSIS ""
What a beautiful dog but yes that stance is not appealing.