Inbreeding in GSDs : causes, effects and future of GSDs - Page 2

Hey I want one of those! I bet they can really bite! 

Does close inbreeding lead to supersized dogs with weak immune system and does it produce no drive dogs and dogs with almost identical features?

Perro,
your talking apples and oranges.

Breeding faults creates faults, inbred, outcross no matter.

@PerroGrande

Hey   Dude!

In answer to your question:

Yes, close inbreeding CAN result in Oversized, Immuno-Deficient, Low Drive, Similar Looking specimens.

No, close inbreeding does Not Cause Oversized, Immuno-Deficient, Low Drive, Similar Looking specimens.

I recommend that you do some basic research and study of reproductive genetics.  I do not know where to direct you to get the simplest and most helpful resources for this fundamental knowledge.  Probably a high school level biology text would be a good place to begin enquiry into this area.  It really is beyond the scope of what can be addressed in a Forum such as this, but I do hope you continue your enquiry.

P3eace
SteveO 

Perro, As per Moons and Steve, to understand inbreeding one must first understand the most basic fundamentals of genetic inheritence. Mendel is known as the father of modern genetics for his studies in color inheritence in pea plants, establishing the basic behavior of genotype-to-phenotype behavior. That is, genetic code to physical appearence. Inbreeding doesn't "create" anything. It just magnifies traits. Mutations are what "create" new avenues, some of which are visible on the surface, others change internal structure, behavior or developement. Basset hounds with their short legs didn't just spring up from the ground, nor did it come about from inbreeding. It was a mutation that appealed to folks, so it was bred repeatedly. Some mutations are desirable, some are neutral, some are detrimental, and some are so bad the animal never survives gestation. Inbreeding does not create large dogs, but size is one of the easiest traits to select for because it's visually apparent right away. It's easy to select the largest (or smallest) specimens from a pack. A child can point to biggest and smallest doggies :-) One needs not have anything other than eyes to select for size or color. No understanding of genetics is needed. As for identical individuals: inbreeding does not cause that either unless that's the aim. My mice were inbreed as heck. I started with four traits: I wound up with six before I killed it with an outcross. I had: solid black mice, solid grey mice, solid brown mice, solid beige mice, spotted black mice, spotted grey mice, spotted brown mice, and spotted beige mice. -- Eight phenotypes (physical traits) from the initial two I started. Inbreeding -increased!- phenotype diversity each generation even as the gene pool shrunk to a droplet.

mendel works for single issues  like colour and size , if you want to breed the whole dog forget about mendel and use your brains , most people who are doctorandus in genetics never bred anything , where many topbreders hardly know how to read and write

also forget about all the academic books about genetics

books are overrated in this area , a book is often not more than someones opinion , written on paper

Hey Hey Duke I agree with you

Hi guys. I can speak with a bit of authority on this subject, as while I am a small breeder producing dogs only for myself and select friends (I don't sell to the public) I do inbreed.

There are many "myths" in dogs, as you guys know. People tend to hear something and it gets repeated over and over, without anyone really looking into it themselves.  One of those is that "inbreeding will result in bad results".

First, I have researched breeding in wild animals, and most are VERY CLOSLEY inbred.  The deer around here where I live generally breed son to mother, father to daughter, for hundreds/thousands of generations. (and further apart, too, but that close inbreeding happens ALOT). This is why wild animals look SO similar.  Humans, who breed dogs for "type" can't match nature for type!

Now, where humans and Nature differ, as breeders, is that Nature doesn't shit itself. It doesn't have kennel blindness - it doesn't make excuses. It culls.  That is why it works so well for Nature.

It can work AS well for a dog breeder, if they will be as honest and as tough as Nature.

The pup in my avatar is a 10 month old male pup whose breeding is this:




       Boldog Dirk, SchH III, FR Brevet, OFA ex, CERF, etc


Boldog Damien


                Boldog Dirk

      Boldog SuperFreak
                                   Boldog Dirk
                Boldog FreakShow, CGC, B, APA WP3, CD, TR 1
                                   K9 X-Dog (WSP Explosives detection dog)

Do Dirk is his father, grandfather and greatgrandfather.  He is larger than his dad, had great hips (prelim) and his useful drives are to die for. 

I cull at birth, I cull at 8 weeks based on structure (professionally evaled) and I cull at anytime in the dog's life if they show poor temperament or other serious issues. What inbreeding has provided me is a way to improve on my foundation dog's faults, keep the amazing temperament and work eithic of the foundation dogs intact and now have a line of dogs which are "cookie cutter" in appearance and temperament and drive.

Not everyone can cull - and my advice is then don't breed. And you can cull by altering the pet if it is healthy and of good temperament.  In my breed good homes are at a premium, and so I do not sell dogs; I place a good one with serious students of the breed as my way of helping those starting out - as some helped me when I was starting out.

I enjoy discussing this subject withany one interested. I have always been surprised that so little inbreeding is done in the GSD breed for it is the quickest way to rid your line of faults and strenghten good traits. 

There are many "myths" in dogs, as you guys know. People tend to hear something and it gets repeated over and over, without anyone really looking into it themselves. One of those is that "inbreeding will result in bad results".

There is a lot in your breeding philosophy about which we will simply have to agree to disagree, NoCurs, but I will back you up on this one.  People seem to be of the impression that negative genetic traits can spontaneously generate themselves and this is not true.  Inbreeding does not cause deformities; it brings out those for which the genes are already present.

@No Curs

Hopefully anyone who reads about your evident sucess with this very close inbreeding will explore the matter in more depth and not jump to the conclusion that if it worked for No Curs it will work for me.  As I am sure you are very aware this whole experiment of yours could have resulted in multiple attempts which resulted in 100 per cent cull rates.  I am not suggesting that this should never be done, just that people need to be aware of the potential risks involved before embarking on this path.  While this sort of breeding has potentially high rewards, the risks are equally considerable.  This sort of breeding requires very careful consideration and a very high level of commitment.  Definitely not something to be pursued without a lot of thought and preparation.