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by bazza on 16 March 2010 - 21:03
Mystere, if you go to the thread CRUFTS TV COVERAGE there is a link to YouTube coverage.
by missbeeb on 16 March 2010 - 21:03
Some may also be interested to watch, "Good Dog! Bad Dog!". Google More 4 on demand and type the title in the box. You will see Lesko being handled by Craig Rice at LAST YEARS Crufts........ and being slated. One good thing about this programme... Beverley Cuddy, she knows her onions and is clearly wise to the KC.
by Videx on 16 March 2010 - 23:03
I have now added a "DOWNLOAD & PRINT" facility to this article. I would ask you to download & print it, then post it, with any of your own comments included, to local & national newspapers, Television companies, Canine newspapers & Magazines, ALL Pedigree Dog Breed Clubs, KC Judges for CRUFTS 2011, Kennel Club "General Committee members" and The Kennel Club.
I sincerely hope hundred and even thousands are sent. Carol Keen deserves our fullest support.
David Payne
As "nugget" has said "expressions of outrage, and disgust need to be followed up if anything positve is to emerge out of this."
I sincerely hope hundred and even thousands are sent. Carol Keen deserves our fullest support.
David Payne
As "nugget" has said "expressions of outrage, and disgust need to be followed up if anything positve is to emerge out of this."
by Jantie on 17 March 2010 - 05:03
Hi David,
let me quote you: "I sincerely hope hundred and even thousands are sent."
Thousands? Keep hoping!!
From what I can see on the different forum threads, you'll probably have 3.
Misbeeb's
Noddi's
and Bazza's.
What happened at Crufts is only one of the examples of how the WORLD thinks.
Can't you see it?
After "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" the World started asking questions: what have you done to the GSD!!
At Crufts they could finally check, and they have seen for themselves: THIS dogs gaits and walks funny! And the crooked back makes him look funny. Why does he wobble like that?
(Read the comments of the common people in the press and on different boards.)
The agressive comments towards people that dare to open their mouths and ask questions about the health of the GSD only prove the thesis and will put the GSD even further off-side.
AGAIN!: You must attack your own associations. They have let it come that far!
By the way, there will be more such incidents coming. With the agressive attitude you're bound to cause even more trouble, and you're only gonna hurt yourselves. If you want to stop the decay of the general acceptance of the GSD, you'll need good listeners and good material, but you have nothing of the kind and you're scaring them away. It's ike in the middle ages, somebody's head must roll. What attitude is that? Well, I guess it won't roll. We'll hear even more comments of the kind next year (IF the GSD is allowed entrance that is!)
I remind you of the fact that on German GSD-discussion boards, the people (small dedicated longtime breeders) continuously confirm the bad state of the GSD's health. And you have been standing at the side for many years at the BSZS cheering at that!! And you have brought the "original" that you wanted so much home to England!
Now the world isn't saying: "Mister Payne, what wonderful specimen you have brought us from Germany! You have done so much for the GSD-community in our country!"
The worl is saying: "Stop the nonsense, and stop breeding for outer appearance. We want healthy dogs. Nothing more, nothing less. And we will let the world know that we are serious!"
Summarizing:
I think the game: "Jemima Harrison versus David Payne" stands at 2 - 0.
Take care. I'm cool.
Jan Demeyere
B - 8570 Vichte
(Don't start yelling I'm a troll. Cause I'm not.)
let me quote you: "I sincerely hope hundred and even thousands are sent."
Thousands? Keep hoping!!
From what I can see on the different forum threads, you'll probably have 3.
Misbeeb's
Noddi's
and Bazza's.
What happened at Crufts is only one of the examples of how the WORLD thinks.
Can't you see it?
After "Pedigree Dogs Exposed" the World started asking questions: what have you done to the GSD!!
At Crufts they could finally check, and they have seen for themselves: THIS dogs gaits and walks funny! And the crooked back makes him look funny. Why does he wobble like that?
(Read the comments of the common people in the press and on different boards.)
The agressive comments towards people that dare to open their mouths and ask questions about the health of the GSD only prove the thesis and will put the GSD even further off-side.
AGAIN!: You must attack your own associations. They have let it come that far!
By the way, there will be more such incidents coming. With the agressive attitude you're bound to cause even more trouble, and you're only gonna hurt yourselves. If you want to stop the decay of the general acceptance of the GSD, you'll need good listeners and good material, but you have nothing of the kind and you're scaring them away. It's ike in the middle ages, somebody's head must roll. What attitude is that? Well, I guess it won't roll. We'll hear even more comments of the kind next year (IF the GSD is allowed entrance that is!)
I remind you of the fact that on German GSD-discussion boards, the people (small dedicated longtime breeders) continuously confirm the bad state of the GSD's health. And you have been standing at the side for many years at the BSZS cheering at that!! And you have brought the "original" that you wanted so much home to England!
Now the world isn't saying: "Mister Payne, what wonderful specimen you have brought us from Germany! You have done so much for the GSD-community in our country!"
The worl is saying: "Stop the nonsense, and stop breeding for outer appearance. We want healthy dogs. Nothing more, nothing less. And we will let the world know that we are serious!"
Summarizing:
I think the game: "Jemima Harrison versus David Payne" stands at 2 - 0.
Take care. I'm cool.
Jan Demeyere
B - 8570 Vichte
(Don't start yelling I'm a troll. Cause I'm not.)
by missbeeb on 17 March 2010 - 06:03
We have huge support... YOU are not cool, Jantie! I've had too many PM's telling me your story and what a twisted bit of work you are! Not too popular on other boards either, by all accounts!
You don't live in the UK, you clearly don't understand or care about what's going on and you just want to shit stir. (Nobody buying your crapola?) We are not interested in you, your inaccurate, costly charts or your opinion... we have IMPORTANT issues to deal with... you are not important!
Get some help for your issues.
by Penny on 17 March 2010 - 07:03
Hi Jan,
Unlike M<issbeeb, I am interested in you. I havent heard of you before, and obviously you seem to know such a lot about what is going on here in the UK, Missbeeb says you arer disliked on other forums etc - I havent been on other forums, because I`m not particularly good at logging on to things. Got logged on here many years ago and stick to it. Its a board that gives good and bad vies and some nonsense, but I believe all boards are the same.
Jan - you are in the middle of much consternation, and have made your decision. I can see just how your views are jaundiced, and would like to point it out to you for your thoughts.
I imagine looking in from the outside, and not having a hands on chance to see these dogs for yourself, then they look absolutely awful. The PDE programme was undomfortable viewing on lots of issues, but I am sure you are aware with the rest of the world how senstationalism sells programmes, so only the sensation and exaggeration of things made the programme. Then people who knew the GSD`s involved were up in arms - quite rightly so, because this was not a true view, neither was it a true picture of the movement, without doubt its speed and conformation hads been altered. Sothe GSD people reacted very clearly on their stance. However with two types of animal in the UK, we had the fudging of the Alsation people, stirring the pot and making things look bad. This is point one to you.
When you look from the outside, and hear some people agreeing it was disgusting and other revelling in it, it must be difficult to perceive. These people have animals in the main that have no health tests, and most dont even hip score, Mr Brandon for instance, on this board as Lornaville has only very recently begun to bother to hip score after pressure - and he has been breeding for over 30 years I believe. A nice enough man, but doing no good for the breed. What you dont know doesnt make it right. Mo
Unlike M<issbeeb, I am interested in you. I havent heard of you before, and obviously you seem to know such a lot about what is going on here in the UK, Missbeeb says you arer disliked on other forums etc - I havent been on other forums, because I`m not particularly good at logging on to things. Got logged on here many years ago and stick to it. Its a board that gives good and bad vies and some nonsense, but I believe all boards are the same.
Jan - you are in the middle of much consternation, and have made your decision. I can see just how your views are jaundiced, and would like to point it out to you for your thoughts.
I imagine looking in from the outside, and not having a hands on chance to see these dogs for yourself, then they look absolutely awful. The PDE programme was undomfortable viewing on lots of issues, but I am sure you are aware with the rest of the world how senstationalism sells programmes, so only the sensation and exaggeration of things made the programme. Then people who knew the GSD`s involved were up in arms - quite rightly so, because this was not a true view, neither was it a true picture of the movement, without doubt its speed and conformation hads been altered. Sothe GSD people reacted very clearly on their stance. However with two types of animal in the UK, we had the fudging of the Alsation people, stirring the pot and making things look bad. This is point one to you.
When you look from the outside, and hear some people agreeing it was disgusting and other revelling in it, it must be difficult to perceive. These people have animals in the main that have no health tests, and most dont even hip score, Mr Brandon for instance, on this board as Lornaville has only very recently begun to bother to hip score after pressure - and he has been breeding for over 30 years I believe. A nice enough man, but doing no good for the breed. What you dont know doesnt make it right. Mo
by Penny on 17 March 2010 - 08:03
Second point Jan,
Because we are two types of dog in the UK, there is arguement. The KC favour the Alsations, and you will ask why. Because they are no trouble to them Jan. They dont moan at them for registering pups from un-scored parents because they do it all the time, they dont get all pro-active and lobby the KC on health issues because its easier not to think about it. They certainly dont talk to the KC regarding such matters. In fact, they dont talk to the KC about any issue other than taking a dog to a show, getting arosette if they get lucky, and coming home with a trophy for the mantlepiece. There are now a few from the company of the Alsations that are hip scoring, and dojng the right things, but they are not searching the health issues, they are going with the flow minimally to prove they have an interest. This is not my view, have a look at the KC`s own data on their website, it will show who does and doesnt hip score and have a count up.
Then we get the biggy. These people go to shows - and this can be proven by video footage, they are quiet, they behave, and by behave I mean that they dont double handle. Why dont they double handle? Because their dogs dont need to put their ears up and look the part, they dont gait out, because they are not required to in a triangle, they dont show great zest for life and have working abilities so need to be in tune with their owners, most of whom, (me included) couldnt gait at such a pace with my dog, but it looks absolutely beautiful done correctly. They dont need to take their dogs off lead and do a lap of the ring as owners to show the judge WHAT THE DOG LOOKS LIKE WITH NO LEAD ON AND NO FORM OF HOLDING IT UP or in oujr case no pulling into exaggeration, surely you can see if we are willing and indeed do that, we have nothing much to hide. So all these things add up loosely to being no trouble to the KC And seriously, it also means no trouble from the KC - because our KC is the only one in the civilised world that requires NO HEALTH TESTS to show. Just look at the colour of the dog and other things, and Bobs your Uncle..... Many dogs suffer HD and dont show it in movement or when in their young years. They dont have to show it to pass it on in worse terms to their off-spring. So you could ask what dont these Alsation people do that upsets us so much. They dont look into lines containing epilepsy, ask our GSD breed co-ordinator how much info she has given by them, and how much by GSD breeders - compare yourself. We put ourselves out to dry on so many issues, Elbow dysplasia, Haemophilia, Epilepsy, JRD - David got himself into lots of hot water because he chose to take a stance on an issue rather unknown to the GSD in real terms..... but they found positives !!! How can this type of action be wrong for the breed. Mo.
Mo.
Because we are two types of dog in the UK, there is arguement. The KC favour the Alsations, and you will ask why. Because they are no trouble to them Jan. They dont moan at them for registering pups from un-scored parents because they do it all the time, they dont get all pro-active and lobby the KC on health issues because its easier not to think about it. They certainly dont talk to the KC regarding such matters. In fact, they dont talk to the KC about any issue other than taking a dog to a show, getting arosette if they get lucky, and coming home with a trophy for the mantlepiece. There are now a few from the company of the Alsations that are hip scoring, and dojng the right things, but they are not searching the health issues, they are going with the flow minimally to prove they have an interest. This is not my view, have a look at the KC`s own data on their website, it will show who does and doesnt hip score and have a count up.
Then we get the biggy. These people go to shows - and this can be proven by video footage, they are quiet, they behave, and by behave I mean that they dont double handle. Why dont they double handle? Because their dogs dont need to put their ears up and look the part, they dont gait out, because they are not required to in a triangle, they dont show great zest for life and have working abilities so need to be in tune with their owners, most of whom, (me included) couldnt gait at such a pace with my dog, but it looks absolutely beautiful done correctly. They dont need to take their dogs off lead and do a lap of the ring as owners to show the judge WHAT THE DOG LOOKS LIKE WITH NO LEAD ON AND NO FORM OF HOLDING IT UP or in oujr case no pulling into exaggeration, surely you can see if we are willing and indeed do that, we have nothing much to hide. So all these things add up loosely to being no trouble to the KC And seriously, it also means no trouble from the KC - because our KC is the only one in the civilised world that requires NO HEALTH TESTS to show. Just look at the colour of the dog and other things, and Bobs your Uncle..... Many dogs suffer HD and dont show it in movement or when in their young years. They dont have to show it to pass it on in worse terms to their off-spring. So you could ask what dont these Alsation people do that upsets us so much. They dont look into lines containing epilepsy, ask our GSD breed co-ordinator how much info she has given by them, and how much by GSD breeders - compare yourself. We put ourselves out to dry on so many issues, Elbow dysplasia, Haemophilia, Epilepsy, JRD - David got himself into lots of hot water because he chose to take a stance on an issue rather unknown to the GSD in real terms..... but they found positives !!! How can this type of action be wrong for the breed. Mo.
Mo.
by Penny on 17 March 2010 - 08:03
Third and last point Jan, so as not to bore the socks of folk here that know and see...
What have the KC done for us, their gesticulating and proffering of their goodwill towards GSD does not go as far as helping the dogs, it helps themselves. I was interviewed on Friday last with Caroline Kisco. I asked why the KC didnt refuse to register stcok from un scored parents - her answer was the scores were up the the KC website for all to see. How does that help? The KC will register your puppy if the dam has a score of 90 and the sire has a score of 98. It is that simple. Why? I dont know, find the answer from them, and then when you have it, give it to us, because Caroline will certainly not be specific, so she leaves us all to think that its the money from the registrations that the KC enjoy for their lush carpets and posh biscuits at Clarges St and Aylesbury.
Then we have the KC accredited breeder scheme. Brought in to make things look good. How it works. You pay the KC £15 and you get a certificate through the post. You are asked to hip score your animals before breeding - however it doesnt matter if their score is very high, you can still breed from them. Other than that, they make you look good on their website, and its clever marketing because lots of the rest of us that police ur own health issues join, so as not to be bottom of the pile according to the KC when people ask about good GSD puppies. My friend Mrs Kind of Tamworth is getting a visit from the KC accredited breeder person today to check she is ok- she has been an accredited breeder for 5 years !! My friend Jenny Acres, has never bred a litter but has been told when enquiring of the KC how to do things right to buy a certificate for £15 - people will want your pups more.
Lastly unsoundness. Tell me Jenny. What is unsound? We all have our views of "unsound" it is a general term. Is it loose hocks, cow-hocked, wobby hocks, puppy looseness due to the angulation at certain growth stages, or is it cripples that cant do a days work? Possibly you would choose the last description. Why then have they chosen and doctored the report of this years Lagos. Not only has he had every health check going in the UK and Europe, he has done a 20k bike ride to get his qualification of AD and fit for purpose without a doubt. Why then ave the KC chosen uinsoundness. Get wise Jan, after all my ramblings, believe us, it is because they cannt check for it clinically... they can dont lose registration money on it, they evicted an old lady with a young puppy that they felt was loose from Crufts. Will they follow it up and de-register her dog, or not allow her to breed, no off their premises, be seen to be doing right to Joe Public. Unsoundness is a generalisation - and it wont cost them money. They want rid of the European GSD - and for all the reasons I have written here. We we are happy to be rid of them too now, and Jan, I personally invite you to take a ticket from where you are and go to two shows this year. Make your first one the GSD League of Great Britain Regional show. Health issues will be accountable, character will be accountable, and then go to a breed show run under the KC umbrella, one that favours the Alsations, I will find you one if you pm me, and then come back and tell us what you found. Did you read my thread to Jemima Harrison? I offered my dog to her scrutiny with an alsation and a working shepherd, the three were going to be compared, and do AD - the Alsation has not yet been found that can do the AD - if you find it, again, please let me know, I am genuine in my search to prove to everyone that we are not a load of yobs causing
What have the KC done for us, their gesticulating and proffering of their goodwill towards GSD does not go as far as helping the dogs, it helps themselves. I was interviewed on Friday last with Caroline Kisco. I asked why the KC didnt refuse to register stcok from un scored parents - her answer was the scores were up the the KC website for all to see. How does that help? The KC will register your puppy if the dam has a score of 90 and the sire has a score of 98. It is that simple. Why? I dont know, find the answer from them, and then when you have it, give it to us, because Caroline will certainly not be specific, so she leaves us all to think that its the money from the registrations that the KC enjoy for their lush carpets and posh biscuits at Clarges St and Aylesbury.
Then we have the KC accredited breeder scheme. Brought in to make things look good. How it works. You pay the KC £15 and you get a certificate through the post. You are asked to hip score your animals before breeding - however it doesnt matter if their score is very high, you can still breed from them. Other than that, they make you look good on their website, and its clever marketing because lots of the rest of us that police ur own health issues join, so as not to be bottom of the pile according to the KC when people ask about good GSD puppies. My friend Mrs Kind of Tamworth is getting a visit from the KC accredited breeder person today to check she is ok- she has been an accredited breeder for 5 years !! My friend Jenny Acres, has never bred a litter but has been told when enquiring of the KC how to do things right to buy a certificate for £15 - people will want your pups more.
Lastly unsoundness. Tell me Jenny. What is unsound? We all have our views of "unsound" it is a general term. Is it loose hocks, cow-hocked, wobby hocks, puppy looseness due to the angulation at certain growth stages, or is it cripples that cant do a days work? Possibly you would choose the last description. Why then have they chosen and doctored the report of this years Lagos. Not only has he had every health check going in the UK and Europe, he has done a 20k bike ride to get his qualification of AD and fit for purpose without a doubt. Why then ave the KC chosen uinsoundness. Get wise Jan, after all my ramblings, believe us, it is because they cannt check for it clinically... they can dont lose registration money on it, they evicted an old lady with a young puppy that they felt was loose from Crufts. Will they follow it up and de-register her dog, or not allow her to breed, no off their premises, be seen to be doing right to Joe Public. Unsoundness is a generalisation - and it wont cost them money. They want rid of the European GSD - and for all the reasons I have written here. We we are happy to be rid of them too now, and Jan, I personally invite you to take a ticket from where you are and go to two shows this year. Make your first one the GSD League of Great Britain Regional show. Health issues will be accountable, character will be accountable, and then go to a breed show run under the KC umbrella, one that favours the Alsations, I will find you one if you pm me, and then come back and tell us what you found. Did you read my thread to Jemima Harrison? I offered my dog to her scrutiny with an alsation and a working shepherd, the three were going to be compared, and do AD - the Alsation has not yet been found that can do the AD - if you find it, again, please let me know, I am genuine in my search to prove to everyone that we are not a load of yobs causing
by Penny on 17 March 2010 - 08:03
problems, but a large amount of the GSD population in the UK, that want our dogs health checked to the endth degree, and that what should be our governing body would want that too.
Yes people are passionate about it - come over and see Jan, we will certainly make you welcome, and bare our all to you regarding our dogs, including the ones that are in some ways not displaying absolutely correct hid movement, we have nothing to hide because we have this point on board, and are dealing with it through our breed surveys (something else that the KC dont care about or recognise) through our shows, and it is certainly not across the board on most GSD`s. Look at other breeds for this word unsoundness Jan, some cant run, Mastiffs are in great trouble, King Charles too - and Peke`s that sit on ice with a fan at their heath to allow them to breathe easily - surely you can see that we are being much maligned in the wide picture.
You now have jobs to do.
Get a ticket, come see a real show..... then I will take you to an Alsation show, we can organise them to be together - talk to the most fervent of our group that want things right, and see their point - talk personally to the people that own alsations ask about screening tests
Find me an Alsation to be scrutinised on film by Jemima Harrison with my female doing AD she is still up for it, but I havent heard from Jemima since her thanks for my offer.
This offer should speak volumes to you Jan. Mo.
Yes people are passionate about it - come over and see Jan, we will certainly make you welcome, and bare our all to you regarding our dogs, including the ones that are in some ways not displaying absolutely correct hid movement, we have nothing to hide because we have this point on board, and are dealing with it through our breed surveys (something else that the KC dont care about or recognise) through our shows, and it is certainly not across the board on most GSD`s. Look at other breeds for this word unsoundness Jan, some cant run, Mastiffs are in great trouble, King Charles too - and Peke`s that sit on ice with a fan at their heath to allow them to breathe easily - surely you can see that we are being much maligned in the wide picture.
You now have jobs to do.
Get a ticket, come see a real show..... then I will take you to an Alsation show, we can organise them to be together - talk to the most fervent of our group that want things right, and see their point - talk personally to the people that own alsations ask about screening tests
Find me an Alsation to be scrutinised on film by Jemima Harrison with my female doing AD she is still up for it, but I havent heard from Jemima since her thanks for my offer.
This offer should speak volumes to you Jan. Mo.
by crossingate on 17 March 2010 - 08:03
Very well said Mo! All points covered.
Sally
Sally
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