future gsd owner needs advice - Page 2

flattracker,

Here is an example of the rescue I mentioned.  Go to the General Topic thread and see his pic.  He's a nice one with a good pedigree.  I strongly suggest you consider going this route.

Deb

Another Breeder/Importers Dog coming into Rescue
by Krazy Bout K9s on 31 December 2009 - 02:12

Krazy Bout K9s

Posts: 331
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 09:13 pm
Here is another breeder/iimporters dog coming into the rescue. 2 1/2 yrs old beautiful, neutered male. Too protective for the present owner that has MS, dog is attacking, protecting her from her husband. Name of person she bought the dog from is Ray Reid, Oregon...he won't get back to her, and she has been trying for couple months. I called and left a message for him and he then called her, said he would call her back and hasn't yet. So Kaiser is coming into my rescue, probably had some Schutzhund and tracking work done on him...owner never received the commands for him like she was supposed to, so we don't know how he was trained...she has been doing some tracking work with him and he responds beautifully...
Reg name; Lenon de Santa Monica-Col.
Better photos tomorrow, these were from the owner...
Anyone interested????
Steph
www.MontanaGSDRescue.org

Flattracker, I just reread your initial post. I first was directed to this thread b/c my site was mentioned, and I was so busy feeling humiliated b/c it's not ready that I missed a lot of your questions. Embarrassment does that to me, lol.

While it's great if you can meet a breeder and his/her dogs up front, I will tell you honestly that I have NEVER done that, and I have NEVER gotten screwed. I have shipped every single one of my GSDs. One from Washington state, one from Florida, and one from Germany. Any breeder who tells you shipping is too hard on a puppy is breeding some pathetically weak puppies. There are some breeders who don't like to ship, and that's their right, but if they claim it's because it's too hard on the puppy, that to me is a red flag. It sounds like you want a good quality dog, not a nervebag pet, so beware of that.

I won't publicly bash too many kennels, but I will say to do a Google search of any kennel you are considering and search these threads as well. You are correct in your statement that misery loves company. You seem articulate and perfectly capable of reading between the lines to determine which complaints are legitimate, which are totally bogus and all those in between. Anyone who's been breeding a while is going to have people who don't like them. Hell,there are lots of people who can't stand me-although it's personal and has more to do with my attitude and nothing to  do with dogs, LOL. Anyway, if you see several complaints of the same nature, though, you can at least assume that there is SOMETHING behind them, and at least exercise extra caution if you decide to go that route anyway.

IMHO, YES, you DO need to spend a little more to ensure you're getting what you want. Sure, you could get lucky and pay $500-$1000 for a pup and have it turn out great and healthy, but more often than not, it seems that those breeders are the ones who skimp on quality and guarantees and are not likely to stand behind you in the event of a problem. OTOH, you can spend $2500 on a piece of crap if you're not careful. Key word is careful.

I couldn't tell what you're looking for in terms of bloodlines. A typical price for a good working line pup is around $1500. Showlines are a foreign language to me so I have no idea what they cost. You had mentioned protection and that one kennel that starts with a K, so I'm assuming you want working lines. If anyone is charging more than that, ask why. Find out what they may include that someone else doesn't. If you need the pup shipped, ask how much- truth be told, I can fly puppies all day long for $199 on Continental. Of course, you need a crate (approx.$40 for that size) and a health certificate ($35), so figure $300ish is fair. Anyone charges more than that, again, ask why. Probably greedy, and beware of greedy breeders. They never want to pay up or follow through when a problem arises.

Yes, problems can and will arise no matter how careful you and the breeder are. We are dealing with living creatures here, not material goods. None are perfect. What's more important is how a problem is handled. Read a breeder's guarantee. If it requires you to return the defective dog, think about that. Maybe it's because they genuinely want what's best for the dog in the event you don't want to keep it. OR, most likely, they know that you're attached to the dog and it's a great way to get out of holding up their end of the deal!

  Jen,

    Thank you for your highly informative reply. As far as my question regarding shipment of dogs. That was completly of my own curiosity. I really havent visited or spoken to any breeders other than the one that i mentioned, and they were 20 minutes from my house. So no need to even bring shipping up. I have read that the first twelve weeks of life are critical in determining the disposition of the dog when they get older. Being that most breeders will ship a dog at eight weeks, i figured that it could be stressful on a dog that is at such a critical developmental stage in its life thus causing some negative effects on the dog. But it seems that I underestimate these dogs as this appears to be common practice lol!
  As far as narrowing down what im looking for as far as lines. I would say that im definatley more attracted to the working lines. I really cant stand the severe roach back look that seems to be dominant in show lines (in my limited experience). Large head, heavy bone, good muscle tone is what does it for me as far as this breed (norbo ben ju, wow is all i have to say). As far as temperment and demeanor; I would like the dog to be aloof but not aggressive with strangers unless threatened. Have a good amount of energy to keep up because i lead an active lifestyle and love being outdoors as much as possible. the dog does not have to have world competitor potentional but I love trying new things and would like the dog to be able to hold its owne if i wanted to try some schutzund, tracking, agility, etc. etc. with my new best bud.  And above all else, healthy, and good with family and children. I really dont have to much of a preference on color, bi color, red and black, sables, I find them all striking and beautiful in there own ways.

 John

 By the way, what does hd/ed 0/0 0/0 mean.

" I won't publicly bash too many kennels, but I will say to do a Google search of any kennel you are considering and search these threads as well."

EXCELLENT IDEA!

Make SURE you do a search on Kraftwerk for this forum! 

hd/ed 0/0/0/0 probably means hip and elbow dysplasia free in all 4 legs, though I don't think I've ever seen it listed exactly that way before.

HD 0/0 and ED 0/0 mean no hip or elbow dysplasia in either leg. You see this type rating system often on Czech dogs.

BEWARE- IT IS OFTEN A LIE. Ask to see the REAL papers on any dogs whose offspring you are considering. This database is wrought with incorrect information. Hanna Leena (Annie) Joseph can tell you ratings on most any dog you will want to ask about.

I have a friend who had a dog w/all 0/0 hips and elbows on the pedigree. The dog had the worst set of hips I have ever seen. Annie said that most of the ratings on the dogs were not correct on the database and that many dogs in the ped. had dysplasia to varying extents.

Good that you have no color preference. That way you can pick the proper pup for the proper reasons w/out being clouded by aesthetics.

I think you would be quite satisfied with a working line pup provided it is bred for balance (as I think ALL should be) and not single purpose (ie, Sch, pet, etc..) A well balanced dog can do anything you ask of it, and will be better able to accompany you on "normal" family activities than a dog that has been improperly bred to excel at only one thing like Sch. Be sure to let the breeder know that while you might like to do Sch. and want a quality pup w/working drives (over simplifying for the sake of brevity here), you want a dog you can LIVE with. Don't let anyone tell you that their dogs are so high drive they can't live in the house- that's simply an excuse for over the top breeding practices and poor control. Some will say that because they think it makes their dogs sound like the "ultimate" sport dog...IMO/IME, they are simply inexperienced breeders and have made poor choices, and are breeding unbalanced dogs.

On the other end of the spectrum, but equally detrimental are what I will call pet breeders, for lack of  a better word. I have nothing against 'pets' but I don't know what else to call them. These are the breeders who talk a good game but do NOTHING with their dogs, yet claim they will be good at "SAR, Sch. PP, PSD, balancing checkbooks, etc." How do they know this? Have they gotten off their fat asses once in the last ten years to do something with the dog??? And I don't mean it has to be something "formal" all the time. If you talk with them long enough, you will find out who truly knows their dogs and who has a kennel or house full of pretty faces and empty heads or dogs whose temperaments they really can't tell you about because they don't spend any time with them.

Beware of those who only emphasize one thing, ie good looks, high prey drive, good hips, etc. Again, you want balance. I personally like a V rated dog, or at least an SG, bred to a V. I think structure is one of those things that is unfortunately losing it's importance and this is wrong and detrimental. Are their dogs breed surveyed? Again, not the be all, end all, but just another thing to look at when determining quality/value if you are new to these dogs, which you say you are.

Ok, done for now...lol.

 Hi John,

Just came across your post and thought I'd throw in my $.02.  

> Can anyone give me the names and websites of some reputable breeders in the area?
I don't know of any breeders in Chicago, but you're only a couple hours away from Indianapolis where there are a couple great GSD breeders who are members at the local Schutzhund club (www.ogindianapolis.org/About%20Us.htm).  Mike the president of the Indy club works closely with Eurosportk9, who happen to be a favorite breeder of mine.  

>Has anyone dealt with shipping a dog?
I have shipped 8 week old pups and imported adults from Europe, and while it is a stressful event, I've never seen one fail to bounce back immediately once it was lovingly welcomed into it's new pack.  Any time a pup is taken from it's litter and sent to a new home it's a stressful experience and will make for a long night or two of "crying", but I don't think shipping will over-traumatize them.  

>The breeder is Kraftwerkk9.... are they truly a bad breeder? Or, is it just human nature to share more bad than good. 
You've already gotten several opinions on this I'm sure, but in my experience, my bitch Carmen (shipped to me from Kraftwerk at 8 wks old) is an outstanding GSD and I'm thrilled to have her.  She's now going on 3 years old, and I've had zero problems with her or with Wayne during the purchase transaction.  I was very picky on which litter I wanted a pup from, as I was going for a high drive working line, and I got exactly what I wanted.  Not everyone agrees regarding Kraftwerk, but my opinion is based on my experience and the bitch I own and work with, for what it's worth.

>Is it completley neccasary to go for an expensive champion bloodline like kraftwerk to have the best chance of a healthy dog with a sound temperment

I'm of the opinion that you get what you pay for.  I've spent lots of money on the dogs I work with, but more important than the money spent was the research done on the parents (as was mentioned elsewhere seeing actual X-Rays and certifications vs. believing blindly what's advertised, seeing the dogs in action if you're looking at working them, etc.), getting referrals from qualified folks actively involved with the animals (such as at local clubs, etc.), and being 100% confident in the choice before buying. 

Best of luck!
Dan

Dan, FWIW, it's not the dogs from Kraftwerk that we have a problem with. It's the owner! And most importantly, the way the dogs are treated!

 Thank you for your replies. I know that i have not posted in a while, but im still here lurking under the radar, doing research and narrowing down the list of breeders i plan to contact and potentially deal with when the time is right.
  In regard to the interest in kraftwerk. When i did my initial google search they were one of the first to pop up, so naturally i took a look. The website was very nice, the dogs appeared strong and healthy, and the facility seemed top notch. However the biggest thing that attracted me was one of there stud dogs at the time. If i had to pick a dog based solely on appearance, he would be my first choice hands down. This is totally a matter of opinion and taste but he is exactly my taste. He is extremly sleek and powerful looking. I just checked the site and it appears he is no longer at stud. If anyone knows or has any info on this dog or where he is at stud currently, if at all, i would really like to know. Also if anyone has one of the pups that he sired, i would be interested in how they have turned out. I entered his name into the search engine on this site and this is what i got. http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/gsd/pedigree/634278.html


Also, could someone educate me on some of these hip ratings and what they mean. (a1) (a2), fast normal etc. etc. all very confusing to a newbie.

flattracker, I always give the same advice when this question comes up and that is, have you ever considered purchasing an older/adult dog rather than a pup?

With a little research you may find a breeder who has a dog that hasn't quite come up to the grade, whether it be working or show lines, who would be willing to release it to a responsible pet owner. They will often command a similar price as a pup and the great advantage of a dog of 6 - 18 months is that what you see is pretty much what you get.

One of the best ways to find out is to ask breeders themsleves. Being in the "dog community" they will have better contacts and knowledge and if they see you as repsonsible and honest will be more prepared to put you in touch with someone. Remember there are always good breeders who are always looking for good owners - it just takes a little time & patience.

Best of luck,

AandA