VA 1 Pakros d'Ulmental--ED: noch zugelassen - Page 2

There is not enough data for a ZW for ED yet. Will probably take a few more years. In order for a ZW to be established you need several generations to work with. I cannot tell you how the a, b and c ratings the SV issues compare to the OFA, but they are the passing score. So far. The database does not list any failing scores, yet. At least I could not find any. The SV probably records them internally so that with the help of that data they can establish what the ZW should be. This is too new in order to make any assumptions right now. ED has only been mandatory since 2004, though voluntary submissions were accepted before that date. These were relatively few though. Amazing how many people want to skimp on those extra 32 Euros... ;o) We used to screen dogs regularly for ourselves, but not submit it. Know lots of breeders and trainers who did the same.
I also find the statement of the OFA a bit difficult to digest. I have always been taught that the elbow is properly fused at around 6 months of age. So far I can only tell you from experience that ED x-rays that were ok at 6-7 months have always come back ok at age 1. Of course with the SV there is hardly any data for older dogs. 
With a dog like Pakros who has had such an extensive and physically demanding show carreer and is sound at age 5, what ever the rating, it is not showing any effect. Usually age 4 to 5 is when elbow problems manifest themselves with physical symptoms such as lameness etc. Corrective surgery can be ruled out as he would not be able to show after that. A quick glance at his the offspring that has been HD certified shows that there is certainly not a high number of dogs that lacks ED certification, an indication that ED may have not been submitted because the elbows were not good enough. There are some, many of them dogs with foreign kennel names or foreign dams, where ED may not be mandatory yet. Of the ED results that are published the majority is a(normal). So no, I would not dismiss Pakros for breeding on the basis of NZ elbows.

Louise, I do not know any breeders who do both regularly (SV and OFA). I wish more would come forward and post some of the results both of these systems have produced.

It a show, not a contest about best genetics. Genetics only come into play when considering the dogs progeny and how well they "show". As Duke pointed out, breeders have options. They do not have to go with the prettiest dog if they don't want to.

The SV requires that every stud has to be re x-rayed after a certain number of stud services, regardless of time. No new a-stamp is issued.

Yimmy can be bred to any female with ZW of 86 and lower. Does not really pose much of a limit.

Louise, I do not know any breeders who do both regularly (SV and OFA). I wish more would come forward and post some of the results both of these systems have produced.

While I no longer concider myself a "breeder", I have been a breeder (and have trained and titled many dogs--AKC titles prior to schutzhund) since 1964. I have dealt with a direct line from the same family of "German" GSD's on this side of the pond for 6 generations. The family goes back to Orlanda Kirschental who received an OFA "good" for her hips when whe was 60 months old!

For HD, these dogs are consistently OFA "good"/"excellent" (as well as OFA "normal" for ED) and all are rated "a" normal for HD by the SV--and have ZW scores in the 70's--I have not submitted xrays for the SV's new ED registry. The males I have from the 4th generation have, thus far, produced no incidence of HD or ED.

I think that these positive anecdotal results are greater than coincidence.

I didn't realize there were "degrees" of UAP or does OFA and/or the SV include other elbow defects in the mix when rating elbows?

This certainly is the first time I have seen a VA dog with nz elbows.  Once again, like in the US, politics plays a very important part of the 'dog game'.

Two years ago, an SV judge showed his dog and received a VA. This dog did not deserve a VA and if someone else would have been handling the dog he would not have even made it to the first ring.

It is a shame more breeders don't breed to improve their lines or what their bitch is lacking, but feel they need to breed to the 'flavor of the month'. They just want to breed to a VA dog no matter what. There are a ton of good dogs out there. Look for something with good hips and elbows, workability and help the breed instead of hurting it.

I didn't realize there were "degrees" of UAP or does OFA and/or the SV include other elbow defects in the mix when rating elbows?

From the OFA website:

Grade I Elbow Dysplasia
Minimal bone change along anconeal process of ulna (less than 3mm).

Grade II Elbow Dysplasia
Additional bone proliferation along anconeal process (3-5 mm) and subchondral bone changes (trochlear notch sclerosis).

Grade III Elbow Dysplasia
Well developed degenerative joint disease with bone proliferation along anconeal process being greater than than 5 mm.

I guess that is is roughly the equivalent of rating HD as mild, moderate, or severe.

As for the SV's A1, A2, and A3 (NZ) for elbows, I haven't a clue.

Bear in mind that the the OFA equates NZ hips as "mild" HD. Therefore, I interpret NZ elbows as a form of "mild" ED.

So OFA doesn't grade elbow conformation as borderline, fair, good, excellent.  Either the dog has no signs of UAP/ED and gets a number or it doesn't? Evidentally the SV does grade elbows and would approve for breeding a dog with elbows that would not get a number from OFA?

Evidentally the SV does grade elbows and would approve for breeding a dog with elbows that would not get a number from OFA?

That is my assumption. OFA gives only one rating for clear elbows: "normal". It is an all-or-none rating. Less is like being a little bit pregnant, IMO.

With a dog like Pakros who has had such an extensive and physically demanding show carreer and is sound at age 5, what ever the rating, it is not showing any effect. Usually age 4 to 5 is when elbow problems manifest themselves with physical symptoms such as lameness etc.

Dogs with ED may not show clinical signs of lameness. I recall a dog with radiographic UAP that was on the USA World Team. What can be more physically demanding than that of a competition "sport dog"? Coincidentally, he was advertised as having OFA "good" hips. I automatically see a red light when a dog is not advertised as being free of dysplasia at both ends.

The SV requires that every stud has to be re x-rayed after a certain number of stud services, regardless of time. No new a-stamp is issued.

Maybe not. However, if there were radiographic changes for the worse, do you suppose that a VA dog's hip certification would be revoked? Not likely--any more than a truly enormous previously VA male would ever be measured as oversized at a subsequent show under the present guidelines pertaining to height.

ok, where is all this going? A lot of guestimation and negativity here. What is the point of hypothethysing about assumptions without any knowledge base?

You can be assured that the SV will be using the most current data available when implementing something new such as ED evaluations and not something outdated or obsolete if they bother to go through the trouble at all.

And despite all this "a little bit pregnant" the German system is consistently producing more sound hips than the 19% failure rate the OFA system is producing, incidentaly the same rate as back in the 80s. I can certainly see the progress there. The OFA may rate NZ as whatever, they also rate a-normal as everything from excellent to fair, which by its very logic is an irrational categorization.

Actually I know a lot of things and sports that are more or as demanding than competitive Schh. Showing a dog at German Sieger Show level to a VA several years in a row would be right up there. How old was the dog that was a member of the USA World Team at the time he was competing? I assume this dog was a client at the clinic you were working, or how else would you be privy to that info?

Especially elbows are very vulnerable to outside influences and stresses, probably more so than hips. The joint is not properly fused together after all til the dog has reached about 6 months of age. Do something wrong in that time and it will leave a permanent mark, which may not be genetic at all.

I do not see any red flags if a dog is not certified at both ends. Depends on where the dog is or comes from though and how old it is. Simple for SV dogs - if born after 2004, both HD and ED is required now. If born before it was not required, so why should that raise a red flag. If ED is not required in the country the dog comes from why should it raise red flags, as it may simply not have been done as part of that country's breeding requirements. As already mentioned, people have choices and just need to exercise them. We do not breed body parts but whole dogs. There is nothing gained and nothing lost by placing any dog in the top. Its the human that produces the gain or the loss that might follow. Pakros may bring many good qualities to the breed and this bashing is just absolutely disrespectful. To the dog. To his offspring. To the SV. To the many different judges who have placed him over the years. You don't like their decisions, you have a different opinion, don't use the dog.