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by Abby Normal on 15 December 2010 - 12:12
It is worth recapping the Dutch VDH article and recommendations and the credentials of the writer. Instigator of the guidelines published by the VDH Netherlands is Peter Van Oirschot, Supervisor Breed Affairs S.V Netherlands, and SV Judge. Some of you may also have attended a superb lecture given by him in the UK some years ago.
This is how he heads his issuing statement: 'This is to inform you about the communication of the Dutch GSD Association - V.D.H. - with Dr.Kooistra, Universityof Utrecht. The GSD Board of the Netherlands has taken a stand in accordance with Dr. Kooistra. In the April magazine (page 9) of the V.D.H. is published an article with official advice of the Board of the V.D.H. to all breeders of GSD'
I doubt that someone with this background would make those recommendations on a whim. Mo summarised it very well a while back too. It is just a case of breeding intelligently with the knowledge of the clear/carrier status of dogs. Without knowledge you cannot devise a strategy. To take no action because others are taking no action isn't any basis for progress, and no reason for the UK to ignore beneficial possibilities to improve the breed in the UK
This is how he heads his issuing statement: 'This is to inform you about the communication of the Dutch GSD Association - V.D.H. - with Dr.Kooistra, Universityof Utrecht. The GSD Board of the Netherlands has taken a stand in accordance with Dr. Kooistra. In the April magazine (page 9) of the V.D.H. is published an article with official advice of the Board of the V.D.H. to all breeders of GSD'
I doubt that someone with this background would make those recommendations on a whim. Mo summarised it very well a while back too. It is just a case of breeding intelligently with the knowledge of the clear/carrier status of dogs. Without knowledge you cannot devise a strategy. To take no action because others are taking no action isn't any basis for progress, and no reason for the UK to ignore beneficial possibilities to improve the breed in the UK
by Videx on 15 December 2010 - 12:12
Peter van Oirschot was a personal friend for at least 15 years before he sadly died last December, I discussed PD with him, he informed me of the discovery of the PD dna test, I liaised with Dr. Kooistra for several weeks, keeping Peter "in the loop" - following which Peter with the VDH formulated the article and policy. The word ADVICE was crucial in the article and policy. I know exactly what Peters views where on this subject and on many other aspects of the GSD - you can read his excellent GSD article on my website:
http://www.videxgsd.com/STRENGTHS_AND_WEAKNESSES.htm
http://www.videxgsd.com/STRENGTHS_AND_WEAKNESSES.htm
by Abby Normal on 15 December 2010 - 13:12
Thought it was January this year that he died.
Anyhow, anyone who had any dealings with him or attended any lectures will know the breadth and knowledge he possessed and which is sadly now lost.
I think the important words are official advice. I think his credentials speak for themselves to have decided to offer official advice to all GSD
breeders on this matter.
Anyhow, anyone who had any dealings with him or attended any lectures will know the breadth and knowledge he possessed and which is sadly now lost.
I think the important words are official advice. I think his credentials speak for themselves to have decided to offer official advice to all GSD
breeders on this matter.
by Sue B on 15 December 2010 - 16:12
Excellent Posts Jim H and Kesyra 
Mo - In reply to Jims post you said :- "What you are saying is sensible Jim, and what I am also saying is sensible, so its got to be down to the individual at this point to make their own mind up, if we all keep giving our point of view and making up our minds which way we are going to go, then we are making headway,,,,,"
Couldn't agree with you more Mo, especially as Jim has simply echoed the sentiments I gave earlier, the ones Abby Norm naturally disagreed with, because in her opinion individuals are not allowed to "Make up their own mind" or "Give their own point of view", not unless it agrees with hers of course.
I said in my first post every instinct warned me to stay clear of the thread. I entered after Abnorms nasty remarks to the lovely, caring breeders who posted only to inform us of how much the test cost, closely followed by Shirley advocating breeders should test every pup they breed and that carriers should be withdrawn from stud, all music to AbbNorms ears. It was at this point I feared for the breed should everyone start thinking that all carriers should be ostracised and knew straight away that whatever chance we had of anyone admitting they had a carrier was now eradicating rapidly.
Expectedly my opinion was jumped on, but hey anonymous posters, have never bothered me, especially those with an obvious agenda. Whereas my opinion has remained constant throughout, the same opinion by the way as the many, many calls I have had from people agreeing with my posts, you and Shirley have between you managed to cover every available option from :- Testing every puppy bred and Withdrawing every carrier from stud - TO - Mating clear females to clear males, Carrier females to clear males and the latest being to mate clear females to untested males with even a hint there is now a possibility you would consider mating carrier female to an untested German male!!. Well thats every option covered then!! Still supported by AbbyNorm though I see, as Bazza would say, Priceless!!
Perhaps you know Abnorms identity and driven by fear that you may expose who it is to the rest of us, she offers constant praise to anything post you make, regardless of how you opinions might change. All just Too Funny for words...
Mo, providing the breeder does the right thing by any PD pup they may produce and certainly dont pass it onto anyone else (not even if someone says they would like it), then as you say everyone has a right to make up their own mind on this issue, their is no right or wrong way...
I will now do what I should have done in the first place, which is to stay away from this thread, so I wont be coming back to make further comments here, but before I go I must say Thanks to everyone who contacted me by email and phone, if only to reassure others that they are far from being alone with their 'Common Sense' thoughts.
Regards
Sue B
PS - by the way David Payne raised the PD issue on this very database approx a year ago. So you see Abnorm you werent the first to enlighten us but if I remember correctly the thread started and ended as an informative thread with a minimum of fuss, without any goading.
Mo - In reply to Jims post you said :- "What you are saying is sensible Jim, and what I am also saying is sensible, so its got to be down to the individual at this point to make their own mind up, if we all keep giving our point of view and making up our minds which way we are going to go, then we are making headway,,,,,"
Couldn't agree with you more Mo, especially as Jim has simply echoed the sentiments I gave earlier, the ones Abby Norm naturally disagreed with, because in her opinion individuals are not allowed to "Make up their own mind" or "Give their own point of view", not unless it agrees with hers of course.
I said in my first post every instinct warned me to stay clear of the thread. I entered after Abnorms nasty remarks to the lovely, caring breeders who posted only to inform us of how much the test cost, closely followed by Shirley advocating breeders should test every pup they breed and that carriers should be withdrawn from stud, all music to AbbNorms ears. It was at this point I feared for the breed should everyone start thinking that all carriers should be ostracised and knew straight away that whatever chance we had of anyone admitting they had a carrier was now eradicating rapidly.
Expectedly my opinion was jumped on, but hey anonymous posters, have never bothered me, especially those with an obvious agenda. Whereas my opinion has remained constant throughout, the same opinion by the way as the many, many calls I have had from people agreeing with my posts, you and Shirley have between you managed to cover every available option from :- Testing every puppy bred and Withdrawing every carrier from stud - TO - Mating clear females to clear males, Carrier females to clear males and the latest being to mate clear females to untested males with even a hint there is now a possibility you would consider mating carrier female to an untested German male!!. Well thats every option covered then!! Still supported by AbbyNorm though I see, as Bazza would say, Priceless!!
Perhaps you know Abnorms identity and driven by fear that you may expose who it is to the rest of us, she offers constant praise to anything post you make, regardless of how you opinions might change. All just Too Funny for words...
Mo, providing the breeder does the right thing by any PD pup they may produce and certainly dont pass it onto anyone else (not even if someone says they would like it), then as you say everyone has a right to make up their own mind on this issue, their is no right or wrong way...
I will now do what I should have done in the first place, which is to stay away from this thread, so I wont be coming back to make further comments here, but before I go I must say Thanks to everyone who contacted me by email and phone, if only to reassure others that they are far from being alone with their 'Common Sense' thoughts.
Regards
Sue B
PS - by the way David Payne raised the PD issue on this very database approx a year ago. So you see Abnorm you werent the first to enlighten us but if I remember correctly the thread started and ended as an informative thread with a minimum of fuss, without any goading.
by Abby Normal on 15 December 2010 - 17:12
Just too silly, even for you Sue LOL
BTW - No-one seems to be answering any enquiries as to who is guiding the health of the GSD these days? Is there anyone offering advice (whatever that advice may be) as Peter Van Oirschott did?
Perhaps the BC could at this point offer some enlightenment?
This is MY final word:
It was a good post by Kesyra, and referenced 'having to put a pup with a serious defect down'. The operative word there is having to.
providing the breeder does the right thing by any PD pup they may produce
There is no need to produce a PD pup in the first place. Isn't that better than saying it's OK to do whatever you want so long as you do 'right' by that puppy and kill it before it leaves your premises? That used to be the case, but their didn't used to be a choice.
Is it morally ethical or compassionate? Well of course not.
BTW - No-one seems to be answering any enquiries as to who is guiding the health of the GSD these days? Is there anyone offering advice (whatever that advice may be) as Peter Van Oirschott did?
Perhaps the BC could at this point offer some enlightenment?
This is MY final word:
It was a good post by Kesyra, and referenced 'having to put a pup with a serious defect down'. The operative word there is having to.
providing the breeder does the right thing by any PD pup they may produce
There is no need to produce a PD pup in the first place. Isn't that better than saying it's OK to do whatever you want so long as you do 'right' by that puppy and kill it before it leaves your premises? That used to be the case, but their didn't used to be a choice.
Is it morally ethical or compassionate? Well of course not.
by bazza on 15 December 2010 - 18:12
Evening Carole, I was about to reply but David Payne has already quoted what I was about to say in red, and nowhere have I or anyone else said " PTS and shut your mouth". My wife bred a few litters in the past, had a few still births, a couple pts at a much earlier age than the puppies posted here, all recorded with the BREED COUNCIL scheme at that time, never kept her mouth shut as you so eloquently put!!!
Abby, Abby, Abby, never bred a litter have you, no! You just buy from them, let them do all the hard work, the worrying, the stress, etc. Then you come along, buy a few duffers and lump all breeders together. I feel for you having owned two dysplastic dogs and now one with AF, but you really should let go of this bitterness or you could end up like our little ray of sunshine.. Jantie.
For your own piece of mind, let it go, not all breeders are the ogres you like to paint them.
Abby, Abby, Abby, never bred a litter have you, no! You just buy from them, let them do all the hard work, the worrying, the stress, etc. Then you come along, buy a few duffers and lump all breeders together. I feel for you having owned two dysplastic dogs and now one with AF, but you really should let go of this bitterness or you could end up like our little ray of sunshine.. Jantie.
For your own piece of mind, let it go, not all breeders are the ogres you like to paint them.
by noddi on 15 December 2010 - 20:12
Evening to you too Bazza.I never stated that you or anybody else on this thread said PTS AND SHUT YA MOUTH.I was siting an hypothetical situation where a newbie exhibitor/breeder May have bought a PD carrier bitch and then mated that bitch to a carrier male and produces a pitiuary dwarf pup in the litter and on going to the breeder of said bitch/stud owner is then told to PTS AND KEEP THEIR MOUTH SHUT.The other occasion DID HAPPEN TO ME.Carole S.
by noddi on 15 December 2010 - 20:12
yes i appreciate wot Katrina has stated in her post,but that was many,many years ago and i believe that Katrina has also stated on this thread that she WILL TEST HER BREEDING STOCK.There wasnt a test then,now there is so why is it that some are getting hot headed about this test.I personally think IT IS IN THE BREEDS BEST INTEREST.Carole S.
by missbeeb on 15 December 2010 - 20:12
Carole... read the posts! How many people have said that they're against testing?
Read the posts... hot headed? Yes, but it has little to do with testing!
by hutch on 16 December 2010 - 09:12
Just to note that I cannot find any post in which I have advocated testing all pups - I also believe that my thoughts on the matter have been consistent throughout - use the test to make sensible breeding decisions.
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