This is a placeholder text
Group text
by momosgarage on 22 July 2013 - 18:07
@susie
Newsflash, Spruell's & Baerenfangs Erbe's posts are SPOT ON. They truly have thier finger on the the culture and the dog club infrastature present here. In the USA NOTHING is as organized or welcoming to newcomers, as they are in all of Europe, even Canada is more organized to a lesser extent than Europe, but still SIGNIFICANTLY better than the USA. Specifically in regard to hobby organizations, not backed by the wealthy, such as golf country clubs etc. Also as a few have said, the start-up cost to train a dog and then maintain and build that training over its lifetime are ASTRONOMICAL in the USA for schutzhund, the AKC club fees and trial entry fees are far closer to being a reality for 99% of all dog owners in the USA, schutzhund is NOT and NEVER will be there.
There are NO schutzhund clubs within a 2 hour drive of my home and the ones that you can get to don't seem to want new members without a long history in Schutzhund. The AKC is the ONLY game in town for 75% of all dog enthusiasts in the USA. More people would try schutzhund, as they did when I was a kid and my uncles were doing the sport, but they get tuned away more often than you imagine. The AKC was small when I was a kid, BUT that's not the case today, so if an American has interest in a dog club AKC is pretty much guaranteed to get them first. The reality is that most schutzhund clubs don't want to train newbies, nor do they want "weekend warriors" who can only come to the club 1-2 times a week for no more than a couple of hours. They only want people shooting for schutzhund 3, not someone who wants to only do the BH, OB and tracking. Its all or nothing with most of these clubs, not including the ones who don't want people to be members of USCA and GSDCA at the same time (or whatever other combination no-no they have come up with WDA, AWDF etc) In fact, I would argue that Schutzhund is on the WAY OUT in the USA simply because aging members and attrition with put it to rest one day. USMRA and the two French Ring clubs have a far brighter future in my opinion, when it comes to membership growth in the coming decade.
The reality is that if Suzies "no papers, no breeding" idea was ever implemented, Americans would simply disregard the regulations and papers and just sell like they do Dutch Shepherds without papers. I'll take the opinion of a German who's actually lived in the USA and tried to replicate what they once did in Germany any day over someone who has not. We have someone just like this in our AKC club and she said she gave up on the SV type process a long time ago, once she realized doing such was impossible in the USA.
Newsflash, Spruell's & Baerenfangs Erbe's posts are SPOT ON. They truly have thier finger on the the culture and the dog club infrastature present here. In the USA NOTHING is as organized or welcoming to newcomers, as they are in all of Europe, even Canada is more organized to a lesser extent than Europe, but still SIGNIFICANTLY better than the USA. Specifically in regard to hobby organizations, not backed by the wealthy, such as golf country clubs etc. Also as a few have said, the start-up cost to train a dog and then maintain and build that training over its lifetime are ASTRONOMICAL in the USA for schutzhund, the AKC club fees and trial entry fees are far closer to being a reality for 99% of all dog owners in the USA, schutzhund is NOT and NEVER will be there.
There are NO schutzhund clubs within a 2 hour drive of my home and the ones that you can get to don't seem to want new members without a long history in Schutzhund. The AKC is the ONLY game in town for 75% of all dog enthusiasts in the USA. More people would try schutzhund, as they did when I was a kid and my uncles were doing the sport, but they get tuned away more often than you imagine. The AKC was small when I was a kid, BUT that's not the case today, so if an American has interest in a dog club AKC is pretty much guaranteed to get them first. The reality is that most schutzhund clubs don't want to train newbies, nor do they want "weekend warriors" who can only come to the club 1-2 times a week for no more than a couple of hours. They only want people shooting for schutzhund 3, not someone who wants to only do the BH, OB and tracking. Its all or nothing with most of these clubs, not including the ones who don't want people to be members of USCA and GSDCA at the same time (or whatever other combination no-no they have come up with WDA, AWDF etc) In fact, I would argue that Schutzhund is on the WAY OUT in the USA simply because aging members and attrition with put it to rest one day. USMRA and the two French Ring clubs have a far brighter future in my opinion, when it comes to membership growth in the coming decade.
The reality is that if Suzies "no papers, no breeding" idea was ever implemented, Americans would simply disregard the regulations and papers and just sell like they do Dutch Shepherds without papers. I'll take the opinion of a German who's actually lived in the USA and tried to replicate what they once did in Germany any day over someone who has not. We have someone just like this in our AKC club and she said she gave up on the SV type process a long time ago, once she realized doing such was impossible in the USA.
by vonissk on 22 July 2013 - 18:07
Joan read my other post on the UKC experience s not always are they for the total dog. As a whole tho I much prefer their showing and OB venues..............compared to AKC........I think the majority of the judges need a lot more education and I am mainly referring to our breed--there are a few I we have shown to that were really good and went by the standard.........Then Again through the GSDCA there is a title for getting titles on both ends and I think also health clearances. Blitzen come help me--don't remember what it is called.......Susie you asked what a person would want before breeding 2 dogs---at the very minimum H/E w/ a strong hipped background...........As far as titles, well there's pros and cons. many which have been discussed-------but here is where I am at with that--using an outside stud would definately depend on who the dog belonged to and what they did with the dog. In other words I would have no problem breeding to an untitled dog as long as he had his health clearances an was worked by a knowledgeable person in some venue....I would prefer a dog to have at the very least a UKC CH--as far as "titling" and yes I know some don't consider that a title but that's a discussion for another time..........because it at least shows the owners cared enough to do something with the dog............my point to all this is there are places in AKC/UKC/GSDCA to be rewarded for doing the right thing health wise and in competing with your dogs. And I think that's great.........and I honestly want to do the right thing and everything right but I don't want anyone to tell me I HAVE to. I don't think it's exclusively an American thing--I think it's a personal thing because I've been like that since childhood--and that "you do this or else" doesn't fly well either.................
by Blitzen on 22 July 2013 - 20:07
Vonissk, this is the link to the awards offered by the GSDCA:
http://gsdca.org/join-the-gsdca/gsdca-member-programs
http://gsdca.org/join-the-gsdca/gsdca-member-programs
by vonissk on 22 July 2013 - 22:07
Thanks. I knew it was over there somewhere. LOL.............
by joanro on 22 July 2013 - 22:07
Thank you, Susie. I agree with your explanation.
by Rik on 23 July 2013 - 03:07
looks like this one is going to get argued daily. can a dedicated , knowledgeable individual produce good dogs outside of a "system". I think so. are these great dogs really going to have much influence on the GSD as a breed without that greatness being recognized in some "system", not likely. People start with dogs from SV, Czech, KNPV, RSV2000, Ring, whatever, do a breeding or two and then know more than the system their dogs came out of, not likely. we all have great dogs in our back yard and they can be the greatest of all time as long as they don't have to prove it against their peers.
and I guess I can repeat this again, I don't think the SV is perfect, and I know some cheat the system, but you can still find a GSD for any purpose a GSD has ever been intended for and it's not the fault of the SV if one may have to invest a little more in finding that dog than just ordering it up off an internet ad.
In the American/Canadian "system" each person went their own way and made their own rules, not many dogs suitable for LE/military, sport etc coming from that.
jmo,
Rik
and I guess I can repeat this again, I don't think the SV is perfect, and I know some cheat the system, but you can still find a GSD for any purpose a GSD has ever been intended for and it's not the fault of the SV if one may have to invest a little more in finding that dog than just ordering it up off an internet ad.
In the American/Canadian "system" each person went their own way and made their own rules, not many dogs suitable for LE/military, sport etc coming from that.
jmo,
Rik
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 23 July 2013 - 08:07
I wouldn't necessarily say that. I'm fostering for a GSD Rescue and I'm surprised how many times the State Police is knocking on their doors to test the Shepherds surrendered or pulled and how many times they call to get back up dogs.
Funny thing is, they picked a dog over the one I thought they would pick, simply because I can see the rough Diamond. She doesn't have the crazy prey drive but overall she's the more solid dog, she just needs a bit of work. She's got some awesome defense, is super sure footed, and goes over anything and everything, is small, light and compact but her preydrive wasn't as high as the other dogs. I would have picked her over the other dog. Cops said she's too aggressive.
Funny thing is, they picked a dog over the one I thought they would pick, simply because I can see the rough Diamond. She doesn't have the crazy prey drive but overall she's the more solid dog, she just needs a bit of work. She's got some awesome defense, is super sure footed, and goes over anything and everything, is small, light and compact but her preydrive wasn't as high as the other dogs. I would have picked her over the other dog. Cops said she's too aggressive.
by Hundmutter on 23 July 2013 - 08:07
Erbe, that is not untypical in my experience, of Police Forces Dog Sections
in the UK also. They want replenishment of service animals, not all of them
want to wait until they breed their own dogs to their own requirements, and
those who go out and do the selecting will always pick the obviously quick
prey-drive dog over the sort of 'better' all-round 'diamond in the rough' dog
you or I might be able to see. They don't have the time to nurture them along !
They also don't want to spend time re-schooling a dog who has obviously already
developed aggression issues, even if they want to bring out some aggression
in dogs they do pick, during training.
Momo - Susie HAS lived in the States, so maybe you ought to listen to her
opinion more carefully ?
in the UK also. They want replenishment of service animals, not all of them
want to wait until they breed their own dogs to their own requirements, and
those who go out and do the selecting will always pick the obviously quick
prey-drive dog over the sort of 'better' all-round 'diamond in the rough' dog
you or I might be able to see. They don't have the time to nurture them along !
They also don't want to spend time re-schooling a dog who has obviously already
developed aggression issues, even if they want to bring out some aggression
in dogs they do pick, during training.
Momo - Susie HAS lived in the States, so maybe you ought to listen to her
opinion more carefully ?
by Baerenfangs Erbe on 23 July 2013 - 09:07
I know. She doesn't need that much work actually. Just needs obedience. She's young and healthy too. Just turned a year old.
She's a mish mash of American pet lines but she could absolutely go through as a working line. Gorgeous solid black girl with some nice bleed through on her legs. She's small, compact, absolutely gorgeous and mans, she's got spunk. If I had the space, I'd keep her. She keeps you on your toes. She's crafty too. That little black one playing with the Boxer is her.
She's a mish mash of American pet lines but she could absolutely go through as a working line. Gorgeous solid black girl with some nice bleed through on her legs. She's small, compact, absolutely gorgeous and mans, she's got spunk. If I had the space, I'd keep her. She keeps you on your toes. She's crafty too. That little black one playing with the Boxer is her.
by gsdstudent on 23 July 2013 - 09:07
Please understand there is no individual being focused on. I wish to help people think about options and reasons for certain directions in breeding the GSD. If the SV rules are to be brushed aside because a percentage of dogs receiving illegitimate ratings, what about the percentage of OFA certified dogs who cheated? Stop cert all dogs and trust the owner? It is easy to imagine how to cheat a system which allows a dog to be certified without tattoo or micro-chip. It is easy to imagine how to cheat with both identifications in place, just find a vet to pay off. Impossible? I doubt it. You could cheat your way through every single program but why? Money. Serve the breed, join a local club, start a local club, join a national breed club, get involved with it.
Contact information Disclaimer Privacy Statement Copyright Information Terms of Service Cookie policy ↑ Back to top
