Milo's Necropsy Report - Page 15

"You will find long hair, out of standard GSD puppies for sale, in the adverstising section, on the webpage of the highest rated DOG CLUB in the land! "

The long stock coated GSD is now accepted by the SV and they have their own registry and standard.

AKC Considers it a fault
Coat
The ideal dog has a double coat of medium length. The outer coat should be as dense as possible, hair straight, harsh and lying close to the body. A slightly wavy outer coat, often of wiry texture, is permissible. The head, including the inner ear and foreface, and the legs and paws are covered with short hair, and the neck with longer and thicker hair. The rear of the forelegs and hind legs has somewhat longer hair extending to the pastern and hock, respectively. Faults in coat include soft, silky, too long outer coat, woolly, curly, and open coat.

GSD Defender, throw away that AKC book, at least for when you come here. They aren't exactly at the top of the pyramid when it comes to authority on the GSD standard. You might want to look closer to Germany. I made that mistake too, when I first came here. It was a real rude awakening for me, but now I get it.

LC's are now acceptable for shows, too. It is a fairly new change in the rules, so don't feel bad if you didn't know.

I find it amazing that AKC will register pups from parents that are siblings or parent/offspring and from parents that have no health screenings, but considers the long stock coat a fault when the gene has been woven through the GSD since the inception of the breed. 

I love long coats. Interesting that the Kennel Club UK health screens. Not sure if this is the correct link, losing connections with storms in FL.
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

Keith your idea of a problem is the solution for most GSD owners. You don't get to be the GSD czar and make the rest of us dance to your integrity tune. Our GSDs have the kind of integrity that matters to us. You don't understand it just because they don't go tearing half crazy after a flapping rag. Most GSDs will never be the kind you like because most people don't want that kind. But you can enjoy your kind of GSD and the rest of us can enjoy ours. Sure you got every right to criticize anyone you want for whatever but this one is just plain silly. I don't waste time criticizing you for liking a different kind of GSD than I like. I think it's a whole lot better for the breed if it isn't all one type. Just keep the important stuff like brains and judgment and guts and soundness and health and that incredible spark that only a GSD has. After that, go for different things with the breed. I sure don't want a bunch of GSD clones even if they're the kind I like.

My ideal GSD is the guide dog who would give his life in a heartbeat to save his owner but could care less about biting for sport. The one who does his job patiently and happily. Who just quietly shifts away when his tail gets stepped on. Who wags his tail when a toddler pokes his face. That's my depth Keith. Maybe someday it will make sense to you. If a SchH title is so important for every GSD why don't the guide dog schools require their guide dogs to have one.

beetree still waiting for that list of those wonderful breeders who "breed to the standard" and give you all your money back if the pup develops a real bad health problem.

JonRob

My ideal GSD is the guide dog who would give his life in a heartbeat to save his owner but could care less about biting for sport. The one who does his job patiently and happily. Who just quietly shifts away when his tail gets stepped on. Who wags his tail when a toddler pokes his face.
 

http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/german_shepherd_dog/dog.html?id=640962

My nephew's therapy dog, my in close quarter crowds companion dog and calm nerves and grip on the field in phase C.  

It goes back to what I said upthread.  SchH and Phase C are not just about biting the sleeve.  It is about the dog's temperment when placed under a pressure situation, whether ultimately that pressure situation is to be a K9 officer in the field, a guide dog on a busy street with lots of noise and distraction or a companion dog being pestered by a child who doesn't know better.

There is/was a purpose to the phase as a breed worthiness test.  It is not just about the sport.

JonRob: Why do I need to give you a list? LOL  Please, don't hold your breath! I only want people to know all those words aren't all that fabulous when they get all put together sometimes in these so called contracts. They can be used in the most bizarre and opposite ways, and since they are never written by the buyer then the buyer, should what? Oh yeah, beware! What's the big deal about asking a breeder to just be up front from the get go?

Why aren't you checking out all the tales of woe on this board of people who signed contracts and, uh, wait, the breeder used one or more of the examples I cited to screw them out of a dog, and/or their money that they paid for such dog when it was apparent their puppy got the wrong set of DNA. Some breeders years later, have even finagled the possession of said dog from the paid-in-full owner, much to the owners dismay, or in one case, extending their claims onto the heirs.  Most likely those are because someone decided it was the right DNA!

Do this research when you have some extra time, no worries or hurries. It can become like a train wreck, so don't say I didn't warn you.

RLHAR, I've known SchH dogs that were helper dogs or therapy dogs or whatever. But most helper and therapy dogs aren't SchH titled including some of the best. So the SchH title isn't needed to make sure these dogs have the right stuff for their jobs. Don't need it for a working ranch GSD either. To find out if a GSD can tolerate crowds and pressure I take him to more and more crowded places. If he keeps handling the pressure I take him to the busiest noisiest crowded place with the rudest people I can find. Then I know what he does under the kind of pressure I care about.

What about the GSD who does all this, is real confident, understands what he's supposed to do for bitework and refuses to do it. Because he understands that it's a game and biting is way too serious for him to take it as a game. But when a real threat to his owner like a criminal comes along he bites if he needs to. Is he unfit? The SchH test says he is. But I've known GSDs like that and they're the best the way I see it. Not for a sport GSD person though.

Will a SchH title tell me whether a GSD has a kind heart? Whether he'll go up to a spastic, drooling, grunting boy with some godawful nerve disease who looks weird as hell? And lay his head real gentle on the boy's lap and keep it there while the boy tries to pet him and bangs his head instead because he can't control his arms? And does it not because you told him to, not because he can handle pressure, but he because he knows how much that boy needs him.

Will a SchH title tell me whether a GSD loves kids? Whether he'll be thrilled when a toddler he never met before grabs his lips? And lie down so he won't be so scary to little kids? Just because he adores kids and gentles right down around them. No other reason. It's just him.

If you find SchH titles useful for your GSDs and you love the sport go for it and I wish you every success. I watch the sport, I have friends that do it, I think it's great. But it doesn't tell me what I want to know about a GSD. And I've known SchH titled dogs that would  take a chunk out of you if you stepped on their tail. Probably would have done it before they were titled but the title's no guarantee of soundness. I've also seen SchH titled dogs that growl at kids who get in their face and bark and growl at disabled people who look real weird.

You can get great herding GSDs by breeding great herding GSDs. You can get great sport GSDs by breeding great sport GSDs. And you can get great family and companion GSDs by breeding great family and companion GSDs. Seems like there should be room for all of us.

RLHAR, I don't think you did this so this isn't directed at you. But I can't figure what gets into people that they have to kick the snot out of someone whose six month old pup just died and then he lets us know how happy he is that he has a beautiful new GSD pup. Thinking we'll be happy for him. That new pup is the only thing in the world that can make him feel better right now and some people just had to trash his pup. I'm sure Mike's a pretty tough guy and he can take it but why should he have to. Seems like people could do better than that.

JonRob,

I already addressed the OP and expressed my condolances on the loss of Milo and hope that the new puppy brings healing and joy to his family.

To address your points.   I am not talking about a title being the be all and end all of any individual dog and broad generalizations will only lead to disappointment.   To me personally the title is a set of letters, it is the knowledge I gain about my dog through working and training with him in SchH that tells me how he will react and respond because I have that training bond with him.  I have it also with my bitch.   My husband lives with both dogs but he can not read them or understand them the way I do nor do they respond to him as they do to me, because he's never worked them.

The hope is a breeder or a handler who trains and trials their own stock, whether it be in SchH or HGH is getting that understanding of their dogs through the training process.  I am saying is that a SchH or a HGH title on a breeding dog is a starting point for understanding what characteristics the dog has the POTENTIAL to pass on to a litter and a discussion starter between the breeder and the potential puppy buyer to show that the breeder has sought to leverage their dogs' weakness as well as their strengths to best advantage.

It is just like OFA and hip scoring a starting point to make your best attempt to breed dogs sound of body.

I am not saying that the system is flawless and that there aren't people breeding for sport extremes just like there are breeders breeding for extreme pigment or angulation. What I am voicing my concern over is the blanket statement that Phase C is nothing more than 'biting a sleeve'.