WL + SL = BL??? - Page 15

mypiper - you realise that what you describe is precisely what the GSD was started to BE, before some Show people on both sides of the Pond got started on pulling its body out lengthwise, making it ewe-necked, making it shorter legged, making it longer angulated, making it 'fluffy', etc etc ? 

This is my last post on subject.......
@NYpiper.....I have criticized the aims and directions of WL through breeding for sport goals and too much drive probably more than anybody that consistently posts on this forum. I don't post about their color, good or bad....because it doesn't interfere with them being a working dog, I don't post about their body size/type, because it doesn't interfere with being a working dog,(most of the time), but I do criticize their drives(over the top), and more and more their courage/environmental /noise issues....because it interferes with doing work.
I see the breed through the eyes of it being a working dog, and working dog isn't just bitework, but also SAR, Herding/Tending, and Guide Dog for the Blind,etc. To me the dog was created for these reasons! Notwithstanding, the Herding because of Society, the Breed Could and does still exist in these venues of its heritage. I am not talking about Funsy stuff, but I mean venues where the dog is instrumental in peoples lives. Law Enforcement (Patrol,Scent....ieBomb or Narcotics ), SAR, Guidedog for Blind, are serious jobs involving serious training and lives depend on them often. This is the noble heritage of our breed. The Breed's use is down in all these venues, albeit the increase in numbers in the breed. The ones you do see today involved in work are inadvertly always workingline type dogs. It is becoming rare to EVEN see a Black and red in the real world. THESE practitioners, who in times past have looked to our breed for partners in these endeavors, and the breed has excelled in times past, and by nature of logic should be minimum goals for breeders of working dogs,(and it can be guide dogs it doesn't have to be bitework, it can be Bomb or Mine dogs, it doesn't have to be bitework)......I repeat that for some of my friends over the pond...lol........HAVE lost all RESPECT for trying to get an acceptable dog from showlines. Ask them....don't take my word. So THAT is the basis for the respect comment....I don't look at the breed from a "Pet" perspective in terms of breeding, but everyone knows that GOOD working dogs can also make excellent pets, but most pets don't make good working dogs.
You see for me it all goes back to intent of function....that should never change....and if society changes; this dog in its original form can remain intact and still evolve and perform in society for what it was made....utility work!!! 
See ya on this subject in 2013....Take care! 

<whistle> "BRAVO!!!!" 

Gustav,
The beauty of your last post is that was my point EXACTLY from post one....but I took it a step further....how do we change it? My question originally was would it be an outcross of WL + SL that would help bring back great drive athleticisim etc to the SL?  The answer in my mind now, is that an initial outcross is the way to start followed by careful linebreeding (possible inbreeding) with maybe another outcross down several generations.  Again, this is my first thought on the subject and it will probably change the more I read and more importantly, the more I speak with people who have done it or are in the process of doing it. 

I have heard form several people via PM who have recently done it and are currently doing it, and it makes me think that obviously I am not the only one interested in it.  What does bother me, is the fact that more than one of them  have said that they were chastised by some for endeaveouring in such outcrosses.  Also equally bothersome, is the fact that they said they did not want to post on here because they did not want to be berated and have their opinions torn apart in the usual nasty manner seen on this site (and I think this thread has been rather civil compared to other threads on this site).  Passion and intelligence make for great discourse....nastiness does not.

Daryl and Gustav clearly could care less about the SL side of the GSD and have made that abundantly clear.  But they have done so in a very intelligent way and, for the most part a civil way.  They have always answered any criticisim and even offered invaluable insight into breeding and genetics. I would be a fool NOT to listen and learn from them just because they do not like SL.  I, on the other hand LOVE the SL look and also love a well balanced, focused, athletic dog (who doesn't)!  I know I am not alone for if I was this would be a very greedy, self serving post.

The point here that 90% of all dogs (complete guestimate) go into homes as pets.  MANY of these people have it in their head the GSD looks like the SL blk and tan / blk and red saddle back for whatever reason (Rin Tin Tin?).  There is also a huge market for the sables as Daryl pointed out so why not work to provide an animal that will make the perfect pet but also has the genetic foundation to make the perfect working dog also? 

There are purists on both side of the fence WL and SL.  These purists really should be the guardians of the breed because they OBVIOUSLY know more about it than your average human being.  Often times a lot of the purists go OSAMA BIN LADEN and become extremists and refuse to ever see the forest through the trees.  That never helps.  I am just saying that often times when you have the best of both worlds...bringing them together for a happy medium can only help especially before they both go so extreme there is no helping either side.  There are some that argue (on here at least) that the SL has already gone too extreme and is beond salvage.  I disagree. But, as  I mentioned earlier...where there is smoke there is often fire.  I also believe that the WL could be headed down the path also.  If the WL side thinks that could never happen to them...that is arrogance...and arrogance is a very, very dangerous thing.

To those of you who have PMed (is that a word) me and those who are just reading following this thread and are or have been involved in outcross breeding (either to the SL side or WL side)....if you would like me to put you all in touch with each other to compare notes / experiences without ridicule feel free to send me your email addresses and I will try to think of a way to put you all in touch if you like (or if someone has a better way of doing it please let me know). 

If it is something you truly believe in do not be afraid of the criticisim....keep your eye on your goal.  I used one of my favorite quotes from Coach John Wooden with one person who sent me a PM and I will post it here:  "You can't let praise or criticisim get to you. It is a weakness to get caught up in either one"

nypiper,

I applaud you in your search for answers, and your willingness to the answers given.


The BIG bottom line to this whole situation is the FACT that there is a division. Now, before you read my next statement, remember that out of the 5 dogs living in my home, 3 of them are GSL, and the following is MY opinion. It is not so much that WL enthusiasts keep the division as much as it is SL enthusiasts. Think about that statement for a moment. 1) WL people have nothing to gain by the fact that there are show dogs, they have nothing to lose because there are show dogs  2) SL people have everything to gain, money, a wall full of trophies for pretty dogs who run around a ring, and do some miserable performance test, and rarely ever set foot on a trial field once the breeding titles are gained. (excluding the small amount of SL folks who do value the the GSD as a breed and not just a money maker). 3) SL people control the show world. Saying it is the SV and the judges in a cop out. Clubs determine which judges they bring in to judge shows, they know which judges they can "romance" to bring the desired outcomes, (keep in mind there are clubs that do not do this). In each camp you will hear the question, "is the judge WL friendly or is the judge SL friendly?" If the judge is WL friendly, you may see more WL dogs than usual at the event. The majority of judges brought in for such events are more SL friendly than WL friendly. If clubs were more likely to bring in the judge that judged the entries as GERMAN SHEPHERDS and not SL or WL we may see the beginning of some change. Additionally, in the US we are limited in the # of conformation judges we have, which is odd considering we probably have more SL enthusiasts than we do WL enthusiasts. That is based on the number of times I have been told from people that certain aspects of the show world will not change because the SL are more prominent. If we changed criteria and it upset the SL enthusiasts, incredible amounts of money would be lost that supports the working side of it all.


Now history tells us that the GSD began as a utility dog, and for a majority of years it remained so. Then two brothers, each with their own kennels and in positions of "power" determined which way they wanted the breed to go. Like sheep some breeders followed,, noting along the way the increase of cash flow, ego and notoriety that was gained because of the path they chose to follow. During this time the words of caution that had been laid out were forgotten, because money and power speaks louder than caution. Bottom line, very few people in this world, are willing to give up what lines their pockets. Nevermind that in doing so, you might have to admit that what you had been doing previously might have been wrong. Even worse, by doing so, they would admit that what we now call WL has stayed more true to the breed and its utility.
Until such time as all look at the dog as a German Shepherd, not SL/WL but a GERMAN SHEPHERD, and judge them as a GERMAN SHEPHERD both in show and work, we will continue to have a division.

DEE,
I cannot speak to the trials and judges as I have not participated in them.  From what you say the major flaw I see is that the sponsoring clubs pick the judges.

I also find it interesting that these TWO brothers were able to create such a change...and today we have the internet, easy international commerce / communication, and a huge amount of very intelligent breeders / enthusiasts and we cannot change anything? 

Can't agree on anything, either, and that's a necessary ingredient for change.  Believe me, I was chastised as well for breeding my workingline to a showline.  But, before then I was just as much criticized for being narrowminded and speaking outside my experience.  Obviously, not everyone can be happy, but still we endeavor to change the hearts and minds of those we can to fall into likeminded agreement.  That's human nature, and if they won't join us, we'll crush them.

Not to defend the Martin brothers, but anytime a change is proposed, there will be those who speak about caution, people who simply for whatever reason generally reject any "change" of any kind in their lives.  It's these same sort of people that also hold back our path to progress.  Perhaps the Martin Bro.s could have been a story of success, if in their progress of change, they would have emphasised the importance of holding steadfast to the things that should not have changed, namely in matters of temperament and drive.

NYPiper......I truly don't believe in SL or WL, whether you want to believe me or not.....those that know me know this. To me the beauty of the dog is in its utility. Period!! Don't care what color the dog is. I have owned Black and Red dogs, before they went down the path of not being great working dogs. If you are intimating that SL equals inferior work and weaker temperament, yes I donot care for them. BUT its not because its a showline dog, its because of the traits that are lacking more often than not.
Look up the dog Marko vom Cellerland, VA1, World Seiger, .....would you consider him a SL dog. Surely he has the credentials!!!! I imported a son of his in 1975. I imported a SL son......and I got the dog to do police and protection work mind you. My point is its not about ShowLines or me not liking a dog that shows well....its about a dog being true to its heritage and embodiment. That's all.....Why is it so hard for people to acknowledge facts????? I will say one more time,,,,,I like all colors and types as long as they embody the traits of the breed. But if they are lacking in temperament, health(like HD or elbow issues) or structure( not conducive to doing what the breed was made to do).....then I won't help perpetuate these faults in the breed....whether it is any color or any line.
Peace!
One last thing....lol....I have offered ways to improve the showlines....read my previous posts. The problem is many of you think that a showline dog HAS to be Black and Red, so any suggestion to improve SL dogs that changes that equation is usually discarded. There is nothing in stone that says a SL dog has to be Black and Red and descend from Canto/Quanto. NOTHING!!!! But many people believe this as evidenced by their words and actions, and inability to accept solutions that will alter this. Now that is really the height of Arrogance.
Take care.

Gustav: I don't subscribe to the idea that a SL dog has to be black & Red... I used to have a silver & black sadleback back in the early 70's and other than the fullness of the color, I really don't place it in a big priority in the conformation/aesthetics criteria. And I also grant that the work of four decades won't be undone in a couple of generations, but if what we are proposing, which is essentially returning the breed to its earlier condition of dogs like Marko vom Cellerand, we should start moving the boulder over... For as the saying goes, if not now, when?

Charlie,

 I don't get it. If you wanted to breed dogs like Marko, why would you use SL's to achieve this goal? This is a sincere question.