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by Hedi on 23 December 2010 - 01:12
AKC papers in specific. Or is there another organization that issues papers that contain working titles?
by Jeff Oehlsen on 23 December 2010 - 01:12
I think in the last ten years the AKC started putting Sch titles on the pedigrees, but I see what you are saying now. The AKC doesn't have much other than the AKC number and the color of the dog unless there are show titles. I am not sure that they will put other sports titles on the pedigree.
I am not sure how that works, as I am a working dog person, and the AKC is just a registry. I think the breed clubs would have to push for that, and I think those are run by show people. THere is a huge split between show and working people for the most part. Many of them think that we abuse our dogs to get them to bite.
I really doubt that will ever change, as they have some pretty strong opinions about what a dog is, regardless of if they are right or not. When you get AKC papers for your GSD ( at least when I did so long ago ) they tell you that your dog is a natural protector. People believe this stuff unfortunately. I do not think this will change in my lifetime.
I am not sure how that works, as I am a working dog person, and the AKC is just a registry. I think the breed clubs would have to push for that, and I think those are run by show people. THere is a huge split between show and working people for the most part. Many of them think that we abuse our dogs to get them to bite.
I really doubt that will ever change, as they have some pretty strong opinions about what a dog is, regardless of if they are right or not. When you get AKC papers for your GSD ( at least when I did so long ago ) they tell you that your dog is a natural protector. People believe this stuff unfortunately. I do not think this will change in my lifetime.
by nanu on 23 December 2010 - 01:12
wow, this has taken some direction.
First, we use a pedigree as a beginning guide and an understanding of the genetics behind the dog. That is the tool of the pedigree. That's it. I think there was this sort of discussion on another thread as to what some of us as breeders use as decision making tools.
1. genetics
2..production of parents and their siblings
3. how each parent works, temperment, testing, etc etc ( you get this)
4. inspection of other crosses with each parent or their sibilings to find heritable traits.(cant genetic test for these now can we?)
5. Yes, we do look at structure as structure dictates athletic performance and soundness. My view of structure is somewhat different as I look for power over the long trot. My personal preference.
Good read is any book on genetics of livestock as cattle in particular is heavily detailed on heritable qualities and so gives one an idea of where to start. This is the common guide in animal genetic studies. Another example is racing horses. Speed is 25% heritable and so those who breed for racing, the pedigree is important.
Those who breed horses to jump, same thing. Jumpers breed jumpers better than crossing jumpers with dressage horses. Yep, I know some of you will argue this but if you look at the high end of the spectrum, this holds true.
ahh, Daryl, Urxi was titled in Czech Rep and so hips certified. Now you know they have to have this before they can title in Europe.
Enjoy!
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com
First, we use a pedigree as a beginning guide and an understanding of the genetics behind the dog. That is the tool of the pedigree. That's it. I think there was this sort of discussion on another thread as to what some of us as breeders use as decision making tools.
1. genetics
2..production of parents and their siblings
3. how each parent works, temperment, testing, etc etc ( you get this)
4. inspection of other crosses with each parent or their sibilings to find heritable traits.(cant genetic test for these now can we?)
5. Yes, we do look at structure as structure dictates athletic performance and soundness. My view of structure is somewhat different as I look for power over the long trot. My personal preference.
Good read is any book on genetics of livestock as cattle in particular is heavily detailed on heritable qualities and so gives one an idea of where to start. This is the common guide in animal genetic studies. Another example is racing horses. Speed is 25% heritable and so those who breed for racing, the pedigree is important.
Those who breed horses to jump, same thing. Jumpers breed jumpers better than crossing jumpers with dressage horses. Yep, I know some of you will argue this but if you look at the high end of the spectrum, this holds true.
ahh, Daryl, Urxi was titled in Czech Rep and so hips certified. Now you know they have to have this before they can title in Europe.
Enjoy!
Nancy Rhynard
www.westwoodkennels.com
by Hedi on 23 December 2010 - 01:12
So I do not need AKC papers then? I will just have my SV papers...and be able to function in the sport here in the US with them? Maybe a new thread is warrented? Somewhat off topic...
by darylehret on 23 December 2010 - 02:12
I realize Urxi was 1/1 on hips, but the question was about his progeny. You stated "Urxi has already produced some mighty good hips or else, given my rep, he would be history." Now, given his own (less than ideal) hips, how do you figure he's producing "mighty good hips" if they aren't actually certified? You don't have to answer, I don't really care to discuss Urxi.
by Slamdunc on 23 December 2010 - 03:12
Daryl,
Could you please produce a chart showing how many dogs you have titled in a sport that requires bitework? How many of the pups from your working line breeding's have you kept, raised and titled? Could you also let me know your experience level in decoying and actually working dogs whether it is ring sport, SchH or patrol dogs?
I know that you have a lot of knowledge with pedigrees and lines. I just rarely hear you talk about your hands on working dog experience.
Just curious,
Jim
Could you please produce a chart showing how many dogs you have titled in a sport that requires bitework? How many of the pups from your working line breeding's have you kept, raised and titled? Could you also let me know your experience level in decoying and actually working dogs whether it is ring sport, SchH or patrol dogs?
I know that you have a lot of knowledge with pedigrees and lines. I just rarely hear you talk about your hands on working dog experience.
Just curious,
Jim
by darylehret on 23 December 2010 - 04:12
This is a thread about stud dogs, and you want to discuss me? Feel free to ask the people self promoting themselves and their own dogs those exact same questions, and see if you can get any straighter answers than I get.
by Jeff Oehlsen on 23 December 2010 - 04:12
Quote: How many of the pups from your working line breeding's have you kept, raised and titled?
You should get one of his pups and see for yourself. He is one of the smaller breeders that are not self promoting the crap out of himself.
I am going to get a female from him. I have seen his dogs. I think there is a very good chance that you might like what he is producing.
It goes back to smaller breeders in out of the way places that get little exposure and little chance to place dogs in the hands of people that will actually do something.
I have no idea how many of his pups have done anything, but why not find out for yourself ?
You should get one of his pups and see for yourself. He is one of the smaller breeders that are not self promoting the crap out of himself.
I am going to get a female from him. I have seen his dogs. I think there is a very good chance that you might like what he is producing.
It goes back to smaller breeders in out of the way places that get little exposure and little chance to place dogs in the hands of people that will actually do something.
I have no idea how many of his pups have done anything, but why not find out for yourself ?
by Jeff Oehlsen on 23 December 2010 - 04:12
Quote: So I do not need AKC papers then? I will just have my SV papers...and be able to function in the sport here in the US with them? Maybe a new thread is warrented? Somewhat off topic.
Will you be competing ? You would have to see what the rules are for that within the organization.
Will you be competing ? You would have to see what the rules are for that within the organization.
by ShelleyR on 23 December 2010 - 05:12
Hedi,
You do not need to get AKC papers to compete in USA or WDA working events. You can send your SV Annentafel (or score book) to USA with a few bucks and they will "certify: it so you can use it in their trials. You don't have to do that for WDA trials, as WDA accepts all FCI recognized scorebooks. But to breed your dog here in the US you will need AKC registration and DNA certification.
I hope this helps. You're right. The SV Annentafel has LOTS of information about the dog and its ancestors, while the AKC pedigree has almost nothing, certainly nothing that a breeder interested in the SV standard would care much about. USA used to issue a pretty nice pedigree, similar to the SV version but in English. I don't know if they do anymore. I haven't seen one in years.
Too bad. It was a good program, even had the beginnings of a good Breed Warden program, with people who were serious about the German Standard and the tattoo and registration program. Now, anybody can be a BW and a lot of them only use the position as a marketing tool, feigning some kind of official expertise when, in fact, they don't even register their own litters with USA.
You do not need to get AKC papers to compete in USA or WDA working events. You can send your SV Annentafel (or score book) to USA with a few bucks and they will "certify: it so you can use it in their trials. You don't have to do that for WDA trials, as WDA accepts all FCI recognized scorebooks. But to breed your dog here in the US you will need AKC registration and DNA certification.
I hope this helps. You're right. The SV Annentafel has LOTS of information about the dog and its ancestors, while the AKC pedigree has almost nothing, certainly nothing that a breeder interested in the SV standard would care much about. USA used to issue a pretty nice pedigree, similar to the SV version but in English. I don't know if they do anymore. I haven't seen one in years.
Too bad. It was a good program, even had the beginnings of a good Breed Warden program, with people who were serious about the German Standard and the tattoo and registration program. Now, anybody can be a BW and a lot of them only use the position as a marketing tool, feigning some kind of official expertise when, in fact, they don't even register their own litters with USA.
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