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by GSDPACK on 13 December 2012 - 00:12
Yah, something like that, significant number of individuals vaccinated in the population which provides immunity to the one who are not vaccinated.
by hexe on 13 December 2012 - 01:12
No, Jenni, she didn't say RESISTANT--she said:
"Immunities are passed down from one generation to the next - Bruce and Eubac (only 2 examples) can be eradicated in a bloodline."
BE4U, bullshit. I'm not promoting vaccination for brucellosis. I have beef cows myself. Guess what? They aren't vaccinated against brucellosis, because there presently isn't any bovine brucellosis actively proliferating in the state in which I live. That wasn't achieved by people breeding for brucella-resistant cattle; it was done by removing infected cattle from the population, testing breeding stock before introducing those animals into a herd, and vaccinating IF the infection rate within a given area warranted doing so.
I NEVER questioned the concept of some animals being more resistant to this disease or that than others within the same population; I only challenge the assertion that BE4U 'eradicated' bovine brucellosis from her cattle bloodline through the manipulation of the genetics in the bloodline via selective breeding.
For one thing, if BE4U's herd never HAD brucellosis within its members to start with, then the disease wasn't eradicated--it was never there in the first place. That's not eradication--that's absence of challenge by the disease. I've never been vaccinated for yellow fever, and I've also never HAD yellow fever, and neither has anyone in my family; but to claim that my family ERADICATED yellow fever from our 'lines' would be ridiculous.
Where I presently live happens to be an endemic area for bovine tuberculosis, which spilled over into the wildlife [primarily the white-tail deer] from the cattle years ago, and since the early 1990's has been re-entering the cattle herds in the Northern part of the state. Nowhere is there a better example of the puzzle of disease resistance then in this area; why do some cattle herds become infected, while similar herds, located in the same general area, with the same general management techniques, remain unaffected? There have been as many theories postulated about that as there are white-tails up here [and that's a hell of a lot], but no one has been able to definitively identify any specific protective advantages, despite a great deal of time and money spent on researching the issue.
So far, my cows have been here for 7 years, and I haven't had anything come up with tuberculosis. There's no vaccine for it, so that can't be the reason they've escaped, either. But it's also not because I've been 'selecting' for animals that are genetically more resistant to the disease than other animals, because we have no way of determining that at present. In a single herd, you can have as few as one animal that develops tuberculous lesions, or you can have over 50% of them lesioned--yet all are the same bloodlines, all are fed and managed the same, all live in the same environment...so what spares some and not others?
BE4U, you said, "Not everyone is vaccinated for chicken pox, y'know,", but actually, you're closer to wrong about that than you are right--virtually EVERYONE in the world has been 'vaccinated' against the virus that causes chicken pox, but some were 'vaccinated' via exposure to the virus and the subsequent development of the disease to varying degrees, while others are vaccinated by a commercially-prepared immunization product.
Vaccinate or don't, I don't much care, because my animals and family members aren't going to be at risk if you don't. But don't try and sell this fairy tale that you were able to 'eradicate' a disease in your livestock by picking and choosing which of your stock would be used for breeding, 'cause that's just not the case.
"Immunities are passed down from one generation to the next - Bruce and Eubac (only 2 examples) can be eradicated in a bloodline."
BE4U, bullshit. I'm not promoting vaccination for brucellosis. I have beef cows myself. Guess what? They aren't vaccinated against brucellosis, because there presently isn't any bovine brucellosis actively proliferating in the state in which I live. That wasn't achieved by people breeding for brucella-resistant cattle; it was done by removing infected cattle from the population, testing breeding stock before introducing those animals into a herd, and vaccinating IF the infection rate within a given area warranted doing so.
I NEVER questioned the concept of some animals being more resistant to this disease or that than others within the same population; I only challenge the assertion that BE4U 'eradicated' bovine brucellosis from her cattle bloodline through the manipulation of the genetics in the bloodline via selective breeding.
For one thing, if BE4U's herd never HAD brucellosis within its members to start with, then the disease wasn't eradicated--it was never there in the first place. That's not eradication--that's absence of challenge by the disease. I've never been vaccinated for yellow fever, and I've also never HAD yellow fever, and neither has anyone in my family; but to claim that my family ERADICATED yellow fever from our 'lines' would be ridiculous.
Where I presently live happens to be an endemic area for bovine tuberculosis, which spilled over into the wildlife [primarily the white-tail deer] from the cattle years ago, and since the early 1990's has been re-entering the cattle herds in the Northern part of the state. Nowhere is there a better example of the puzzle of disease resistance then in this area; why do some cattle herds become infected, while similar herds, located in the same general area, with the same general management techniques, remain unaffected? There have been as many theories postulated about that as there are white-tails up here [and that's a hell of a lot], but no one has been able to definitively identify any specific protective advantages, despite a great deal of time and money spent on researching the issue.
So far, my cows have been here for 7 years, and I haven't had anything come up with tuberculosis. There's no vaccine for it, so that can't be the reason they've escaped, either. But it's also not because I've been 'selecting' for animals that are genetically more resistant to the disease than other animals, because we have no way of determining that at present. In a single herd, you can have as few as one animal that develops tuberculous lesions, or you can have over 50% of them lesioned--yet all are the same bloodlines, all are fed and managed the same, all live in the same environment...so what spares some and not others?
BE4U, you said, "Not everyone is vaccinated for chicken pox, y'know,", but actually, you're closer to wrong about that than you are right--virtually EVERYONE in the world has been 'vaccinated' against the virus that causes chicken pox, but some were 'vaccinated' via exposure to the virus and the subsequent development of the disease to varying degrees, while others are vaccinated by a commercially-prepared immunization product.
Vaccinate or don't, I don't much care, because my animals and family members aren't going to be at risk if you don't. But don't try and sell this fairy tale that you were able to 'eradicate' a disease in your livestock by picking and choosing which of your stock would be used for breeding, 'cause that's just not the case.
by Red Sable on 13 December 2012 - 01:12
"it was done by removing infected cattle from the population, testing breeding stock before introducing those animals into a herd, and vaccinating IF the infection rate within a given area warranted doing so."
Being a dairy farmers daughter, I agree with Hexe.
Being a dairy farmers daughter, I agree with Hexe.
by Jenni78 on 13 December 2012 - 01:12
Sorry, I thought she used the word "resistant" in this quote:
(BE4U said) "I quarantine for awhile when we get home just for "biosecurity" of my herds and observation of possibles. My lines are resistant to stress related illness by hybrid vigor - all my rabbits, turkeys, cows, bulls and chickens are homozygous by common ancestors and with closed bloodlines by choice."
My bad.
by darylehret on 13 December 2012 - 02:12
Seems a bit of a stretch for the term vaccination. I wasn't "vaccinated" for chicken pox, but I have had chicken pox. To be vaccinated is to be inoculated with a weakened form of a microbe or toxin, not exposed to it's full-on strength. If you get bit by a rattlesnake, that isn't considered being "vaccinated", whether it helps build immunity or not.
Anyway, this back and forth is getting a little silly, don't you think?
Anyway, this back and forth is getting a little silly, don't you think?
by Jenni78 on 13 December 2012 - 03:12
Agree with Daryl. Immunized would be better, as you have immunity through other means besides intentional vaccination...but yes, this is getting a bit silly.
by Prager on 13 December 2012 - 04:12
If you want to know for sure:
1.Ask 1000 people and then make up your mind.
2. Go and clean the runs or do decoy work or other work for such breeder for at least 4 weeks but better do it for at least 4 mo( the old fashion way) . That way you will learn about the breeder first hand.
3. See if you became a friend with the breeder.
4. If yes listen to him/her and consider strongly his / hers suggestion of a dog for you.
That is what I have done and some still do.
Prager Hans
1.Ask 1000 people and then make up your mind.
2. Go and clean the runs or do decoy work or other work for such breeder for at least 4 weeks but better do it for at least 4 mo( the old fashion way) . That way you will learn about the breeder first hand.
3. See if you became a friend with the breeder.
4. If yes listen to him/her and consider strongly his / hers suggestion of a dog for you.
That is what I have done and some still do.
Prager Hans
by hexe on 13 December 2012 - 04:12
Hans, if only more people did an apprenticeship as you describe above--BEFORE they jumped into breeding dogs themselves--everyone would be nothing but the better for it: the dogs, the breeders, the buyers, the public. Everybody wants to be an expert yesterday, unfortunately.
by pod on 13 December 2012 - 15:12
My lines are resistant to stress related illness by hybrid vigor - all my rabbits, turkeys, cows, bulls and chickens are homozygous by common ancestors and with closed bloodlines by choice."
Not sure if I'm understanding you corrrectly here BE. Hybrid Vigour - heterosis is achieved by outcross breeding to increase heterozygosity. Breeding within a closed gene pool increases homozygosity which reduces the genetic capacity to cope with pathogen onslaught.
Not sure if I'm understanding you corrrectly here BE. Hybrid Vigour - heterosis is achieved by outcross breeding to increase heterozygosity. Breeding within a closed gene pool increases homozygosity which reduces the genetic capacity to cope with pathogen onslaught.
by Hundmutter on 13 December 2012 - 17:12
Pod - well said
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